My parents are sleeping in chairs in the living room

[Pigeonangel]

And I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

I live very close and visit often. Always have done, am happy to. They're good company and have been fantastic parents and grandparents. When DH was terminally ill, and subsequently died, I honestly don't know how I'd have got through it without them.

That was only 5 years ago, they were there constantly for all of us, helping with house and car repairs, running errands etc. Until they hit 80 they were amazing sprightly older people who could do anything - furious at the suggestion they might be "vulnerable" during lockdown 🤣

How things change. In a matter of months they've both had health issues that mean their mobility is badly affected. Until recently it always seemed to be worse for one at a time and they're a great team so got by supporting each other, without asking or wanting much from me.

Now Mum can shuffle a bit with a frame and Dad is unable to walk at all. Last night they both slept in chairs downstairs. Mum suffles about to get food, do some cleaning and bring him a bed bottle etc. She managed to do a roast dinner for them both at the weekend, although I can't believe for a minute that would have been safe.

Mentally they are both totally with it, the house is perfectly livable (ie not dirty, if not practical), they seem OK from a personal hygiene pov, and are insisting they don't need anything from me or social services, they slept well last night and can manage.

Am I supposed to just leave it at that? I'm feeling very overwhelmed. It's just me with DH gone, my DC live away and DSis is also several 100 miles away but has lots of opinions on how Mum and Dad should behave.

I don't know what to do.

No it isn’t.

financial LPOA can be invoked at any time. It can be used to assist competent adults, for example to enable to attorney to pay bills, sort banking, pay for care etc.

the donor must be competent when they sign it, and understand what they are agreeing to, and that they can revoke it at any time.

if they are competent then it should be invoked with consent of the donor. However I have been involved in one case where the attorney registered the POA with banks, without the donor knowing, and proceeded to steal all their savings and force them to do what they wanted, as the donor no longer had money and became dependent on the attorney.

it’s financial abuse, obviously, but very easy to get away with.

The post here is about health not finances. OP is asking about their living arrangements and health.

I wasn't discussing POA Finance.

I have POA for myself and also POA for my parents.

But then you’re throwing back all the suggestions. You need to get your sister there in person and have a very frank chat about safety.

It sounds like you need to engage a care company to come 8n and assist your mother with your father’s care, and also help with toileting and bathing.
You could speak to them all about better sleeping arrangements as a temporary measure.

They are able to make their own decisions, just get them some extra help, and perhaps more comfortable sleeping arrangements in their own home, where they will be happier.

From what I have read the parents do not want any of that.

OP can't take control simply because she thinks it's best.

Many older people refuse help and they have a right to.

I don’t think you need to try and take their financial capabilities away from them, you said they are fully aware, however you do need to organise, with their agreement some changes and help to come in and assist.

Just be careful how you word this, they don’t need people to take over, just to assist them at the moment.

in response to the previous poster, I read that her parents don’t want any help, but she needs to speak to a care company, to see how best they can frame the assistance, and get consent in a positive way.

Sometimes it’s easier for professionals outside of family to frame this in a more positive and logical way.

Ok, the post didn’t differentiate, just referred to “PoA”.

like I said though, abuse of a financial PoA can be used to force the donor to agree to things.

i was thinking it was referring to suggestions such as buying recliner chairs etc- financial POA could be used to do that.

heath and medical POA can only be used to make decisions over medical treatment and care homes. Ime the financial POA is much more powerful.

The assistance could be framed as a temporary measure, which indeed might be all that’s required.

oh right. a lot of people are under the misapprehension there are such things as disability badges. Whereas every single little thing needs another application form completed 🙄🙄as I'm sure you're finding out! A single 'badge' could be very helpful.

Sorry to hear your mum has these needs, she's lucky to have you to help her 🌷

('Yes they're Blue Badges, I don't use mine much as I like to leave the spaces for those with a greater need than I have. But they're handy to have)

I didn't find the "system" at all helpful. They didn't tell us about things we were entitled to (for example after hospital stays) and pretty much nothing was available to help, even though the old people in question defintely weren't rich.
It honestly felt like all they wanted to do was get them in care homes-and take all their money.
At the meeting to discuss this, pretty much all they asked me and my husband was would we put any of OUR money towards care homes (I am not joking-and we were struggling financially at the time).

Honestly I wouldnt be above guilt and asking them to do it for me because I was upset.

Which is know is manipulative, but id want to be clear the impact on all 3 of you. Some GP areas allow physio self referrals too so look into that.

Id also suggest some trips they could do with you once theyre better

@Pigeonangel

havd you seen 'Youd Stride' watches?

How long should an elderly person who has lost all mobility be allowed to sit in one chair without going to the toilet to do bowel movements or without having the sort of help that is strong enough to clean and change him.

Now that might not be the OP’s situation because she hasn’t been clear whether her father is able to get to a toilet/commode for those needs.

Although if we take her posts plainly as they are her father is no longer able to get himself to the toilet and her mother is too frail to lift him.

But there comes a point - and quite quickly when it is involving serious hygiene issues like sitting in feces for hours/days - when older people’s right to decide is overtaken by safety and medical needs.

I have gone through this stage with my parents, I hope I can give you some helpful pointers. I agree it hits suddenly, and they 'mask' how well they are coping, you have to now prepare for old old age and get them in the right place. Sleeping in the chair is a 'sign' they might need help and are ready for a chat about getting some help. My parents didn't prepare and you end up reacting to falls / the house getting dirty / not being able to cook etc. Much better to try and get geared up in advance.

My parents showed a few signs, sleeping in chair, not cleaning and I found mouse droppings etc. I contacted AGE UK who have dedicated specialist elder helpers who are DBS checked across the UK. They didn't have any in my parents area but they gave me recommendations. I contacted a company of 'PAs'. They come and help people who are getting on, recovering from operations etc and need some practical help.. I found a person who had run a care home and was all over elder help with the District nurse on speed dial. My parents were reluctant at first but came round to the idea and the ambulance call outs stopped.

It sounds like you might need to move things round in the home, get a downstairs bedroom sorted with accessible beds that rise etc, downstairs washing, create clear walk ways and remove unnecessary rugs etc anything that could cause a trip. Make sure there are grabs in tricky places.

Good luck and it's great you are getting all over this in advance of any great need.

But there comes a point - and quite quickly when it is involving serious hygiene issues like sitting in feces for hours/days - when older people’s right to decide is overtaken by safety and medical needs.

No there doesn't. People, even if they are old, are allowed to make unwise choices that put them in hazardous situations, providing they have capacity.

Edited to add: The "even if they are old" remark was supposed to highlight the age discrimination that is common in these sorts of talks, but I don't think it came across that way. Sorry.)

Sounds like your dad is at crisis point right now. He is in control of his own destiny but all that means is that if he changes nothing, he can deteriorate very quickly. My MIL refused treatment or scans for stomach pains. Didn’t go to hospital until she hadn’t eaten for four days and had to be picked up to go the toilet. Too late to do anything for her by then. Her family were surprised - it seemed so sudden to them. To me at a distance it was coming, but no one would listen or change!

So how long do you leave someone sitting in their own poop in a chair without involving OT/district nurses/ social services etc?

Or are you assuming that they’d automatically have changed their mind about help after a day or two of normal being able to clean up a bowel movement?

How sick / frail should you let mentally competent but stubborn people get before intervention?

I absolutely see the issue, wordler. And I think being bolshy about helping then can be necessary. But if they say no and mean it, and you go ahead and move them, clean them, etc. against their will, that's assault.

It’s also important to remember that elderly people can get delirium from minor infections and not realise how ill they are. In hindsight my MIL was likely delirious for months but everyone was so used to doing what she said that no one questioned her.

You’re lucky. My friend’s mum said that too. Then fell down the stairs and died on the floor at the bottom. Sometimes you just can’t ignore them!

OP could you persuade them to have adult social services out just once and to listen to what they can offer? They made my mum’s house so much easier for her to use. We found that my mother in law used to listen to them much more than us!

It’s such a difficult subject because having now been a 24/7 carer to my partially paralyzed spouse for three years and a crash course in personal needs care and nursing duties I’m hyper aware how soon things go down hill and how hard it is to provide care the worse it gets.

And I’m in my 50s - I can’t imagine being in my 80s and managing DH’s mobility issues without help.

I agree it's really worrying. I'm hoping OP can persuade them to think of each other, even if they are each stubborn about what they want for themself.

If they have reasonable understanding, I'd be blunt. If someone is sitting in a chair and unable to toilet, they are not only likely to not be able to clean themselves, they may well get bed sores, infections and delirium. They will go into hospital and not be allowed home again if it's an unsafe discharge. Better to get some help now, get the OT in and get the right equipment if they want to remain at home, otherwise that won't be possible. Your dad needs specialist cushions and beds that lift up, if you just sit in one position, older skin breaks down so quickly and it's much harder to fix than to prevent it. Skin breakdown and incontinence ends up gruesome for people very quickly, I think you have to be pretty firm on their need to get assessment in and carers to support; it's all very well having capacity but perhaps they don't fully realise the consequences of their choices, whereas a district nurse, care assessor or social services will be pretty blunt about them.

We had a proper lift installed as part of futureproofing our home. They are not cheap but much better and easier to use than a stair lift. I try to go up the real stairs when I am in the mood but would not be happy coming downstairs.

OP, find out if there is a carers support group where you live. They will be able to offer advice and support to you to enable you to support your parents.