Are you aware of the amount of SEN/additional needs pupils in class?

[yetiflowerpumpkin]

I’ve put this in chat rather than anywhere else because I just want to highlight the scale of SEN/additional needs in schools. In my experience, and reading on MN, some parents aren’t aware of the issues school staff face in supporting these students.

I am an experienced cover teacher in a medium sized primary school. In the classes I cover there are 25-30 children.

As an example, in two of the classes 75% of the pupils have additional educational needs. Some are diagnosed, others are on the (years long) waiting list. Some have multiple needs (Autism, ADHD, AuDHD, SEMH, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, physical/visual impairment and other medical needs, some life threatening). I don’t think in any class I cover there is less than 40%.

I think some parents think their child is the only child with needs in class and cannot understand why those needs are sometimes not met. In the ideal world all those needs would be met, but there isn’t a possibility in mainstream with lack of support staff, lack of space and lack of funding.

I try and do my best (my own family are neurodivergent) but I know my best isn’t good enough for some parents.

Does it surprise you the amount of additional needs there are in class?

Also add in working memory 2 percentile and executive functioning similar.

You are talking in the red zone eg on any banding be it NHS or education

People don’t seem to understand this

To get additional support you have to be severe

All you will get otherwise is small maths and English additional at primary and maybe some social communication etc

Even for high needs it’s a nightmare as for instance my son was able to read and had to share a Pa with someone who could barely read at GCSE level as there was no room in the classroom to fit 2 PA . It was a disaster.

They need to build a load more specialist ( not special ) schools that allow access to qualifications with small class sizes. Also they need to allow repeat years for slow learners.

It’s a tough job in a big state school. A lot of the students can be very difficult and resist your help. Even though you are at school all week, you are only paid around 27 hours - no pay for break or lunch. My friend worked really hard with a student, she put in lots of extra hours, working with him one on one. Then when the GCSEs came, he didn’t turn up for a single exam. She was absolutely gutted and took it personally.

The point is schools are no use to anyone if improperly funded. If there is a SEN crisis then a solution needs to be brokered or essentially the system is broken for everyone - that is absolutely discrimination- against every child who doesn’t have their academic needs met.

I'm not suprised and I would not like to be a teacher. Our local secondary had a 100% increase in SEN pupils last year with no additional resources. It's relentless.

Perhaps controversial, but I would love to see more systemic changes rather than more individual assessments and diagnoses, as the very detailed recommendations that follow these can be at times difficult to put in practice. If 75% of pupils are classed as SEN and need additional individualised support/accomodations, it means mainstream schools that we have and pay for only work for minority of pupils. No teacher will be able to memorise reasonable accomodations, provide individualised supports, provide safe space to talk etc. this number of young people. It's completely unrealistic.

I'd also love to see more discussion on FASD, it is massively under recognized.

I left primary school in 2012 in my class of 30 there were maybe 2 special needs children, in my DCs year 3 class there’s 32 and I think maybe 4-5 are special needs. So not much has changed. I think there’s some exaggeration going on here

@YellowFluffyBunny i agree regarding fasd only seems to get diagnosed when a child is adopted or in foster care, checks out what doctor is going to have the balls to tell a parent their drinking did affect their child.

and you think the best solution is to single out SEND families and force them to pay?

It isn't our fault that schools are improperly funded.

DS1 was born extremely prematurely, on the cusp of viability. He was so early that there were no statistics for which disabilities and challenges he would have. He’s autistic and has various other add-ons. Virtually all of the similarly premature young people we know are also autistic.

We had to pay for private school for several years because the state couldn’t offer him an education. I’ve posted about this many times, mainly in relation to the number of children with SEN in non selective private schools. It is a fact that state education can’t currently meet every child’s needs. I’ve been told on here that I’m lying and I’m trying to buy my child a special advantage*. When I pointed out I wasn’t lying, a particularly charming poster replied with “well unfortunately the world doesn’t revolve around SEN children!” I never asked that it should. A suitable state funded education would have been nice though, for him and I’m sure for many others like him.

*the ‘posh-school special advantage’ I bought him got him two GCSEs and he’ll never have a career or live independently. I’m not sure he really deserved such spite. It just shows that many people haven’t got a clue about the educational challenges SEN children are facing.

Do you understand what a state service means? It means it's funded by the state.

If parents want to pay for more, they can go private. But access to education is one of the most important UN children's rights.

The government have absconded their duty to fund education and SEN for long enough. No way in hell should any parent pay for government incompetence. (And the children who need the most funding are more likely to have parents out of work and unable to pay because of the child's care needs anyway)

I've read many stupid suggestions on MN over the years, but this has got to be one of the stupidest.

@FormaWith respect, the number of children in your dc’s class you “think” have SEN is quite frankly irrelevant.
How about you take notice of what a number of actual teachers on this thread are reporting about the children whose needs they are fully aware of.
Am pretty sure they have more of a handle on the stats than what you “think.”

I volunteer and help out with the reading, I’m pretty sure it’s only about 3 or 4 children in the class with special needs of the severity described on this thread, out of 32. I’m only 16 years older than my child and it was the same when I was at school.
But I know people decades older than me who say it was similar or there were the same amount of special needs kids but schools discriminated back then and made them stay at home or sent to a different place.
Sorry I just don’t believe this 75% figure 🤷🏼‍♀️

I completely agree - I think a lot boils down to the fact that SEND just wasn't a thing in schools when the people who are now in their 60s and 70s where children.

I think a lot of SEND children also received physical punishment in school back in those days. Some of them might have been kept at home if they couldn't cope.

Potentially, but I can only make a guess about this, classes were also smaller and the curriculum was less demanding.

Just because it’s not 75% in the one class you volunteer in (where you won’t have been given access to all the children’s information), doesn’t mean that it’s not possible to be 75% in another class. The OP is not saying it is 75% everywhere, just in a couple of classes she has worked in. You have volunteered in one and finished primary school a long time ago. Many teachers on this thread, myself included, are not surprised by the fact that some children have up to 75% SEN children. There are many reasons why on this thread. Perhaps you haven’t read them all to decide you just ‘don’t believe’

Not sure why people are confusing visual impairment with wearing glasses. Visual impairment means that a persons vision problems can’t be corrected by glasses… so in school this will normally mean individually formatted resources according to their needs. Necessary but can be very time consuming

The 75% is in a couple of classes and includes children that have a physical impairment like cerebral palsy or partial sight/partial hearing etc. In another class (that I don't cover) we have a boy recently diagnosed as diabetic and the staff are being trained on how to support. It includes children with a diagnosis and those on the very long waiting list to get one. It also includes children with SEMH (trauma based incl DV).

Not all children with a diagnosis, on the pathway to one, or with SEMH will act up in class. I've got children that mask in class. You wouldn't necessarily know just by looking at them and their behaviour.

Many adaptations are made in class to support where possible. Things like lighting and seating need to be considered - some children with ADHD can't be sat near a window, door or others that may have certain behaviours as they can bounce odd each other. Some children need to have a task management board with each step of the activity written down for them. Some need a timer and Now and Next board. Some of them may need a scribe or (if able to) use a laptop to write anything. Some may need spellings given to them for key pieces of work or a phonics mat in English work, others may need coloured overlays for dyslexia. Others may need access to the toilet at all times because they have a toilet pass for a medical condition. Some may have counselling weekly and will be out of class (and missing learning so need support to catch up). Some need movement breaks and brain breaks to help them process the lesson objective.

That's just off the top my head. There'll be other things too.

It may have been because 85% of the population went to secondary moderns, and children with SEN could cope in a school, where far more time was spent on cookery, needlework, arts and crafts, etc than is today in comprehensives. They didn’t have to do A levels. The attitude then was boys left school at 16 mainly and went to work in a factory, and girls went into retail, factories or maybe secretarial college?

A long time ago😭🤣don’t make me feel old I’m the youngest mum up the school by far.

Sounds like ops school is a statistical outlier, 75% of 32 that’s 24, you really believe it’s common for 24 in a class to have special needs baring in mind I think a few pages back the op said she wasn’t talking about mild things like glasses. Even if I’m wrong about my DCs class I’m not wrong about my own you really think just 16 years the average year 3 class went from maybe 2 special needs kids to 24? You really out here believing this? Btw every September on this site we have our annual “nearly every child these days starts school in nappies” which is also grossly exaggerated bullshit

Yes that’s a good point and there were suitable occupations for them when they left school

Honestly, there aren't going to be many jobs available for the next generation at all, SEN or no SEN. AI is going to swallow up so many jobs that the unemployment rate will balloon.

I’d like to point out that it’s two classes I cover that are this high and the others are no
lower than 40%. Other school staff have responded on here with some saying similar to where they work and others saying it’s far less. Not every school or class is the same. And I’ve also been quite clear it’s not just SEN and have included the term additional needs, listing out what they include.

If you don’t wish to believe what I have posted that’s your prerogative but I can’t imagine why anyone would make this up. What would be the point?

OP hasn’t said it’s every class though. Just that in a couple of cases it has been.

You said you left primary school in 2012. 14 years is a long time in education. Things change so quickly. Covid happened in that time and had a huge impact, for example. Huge budget cuts. Closure of much needed SEN provision. Etc etc.

I’m not ‘out here believing’ that an average class has 75% SEN because that is not what OP
nor I said. Just that it can happen on occasion.

I am a teacher. I work in a variety of schools with children who have SEN. Many classes have around 30-40% SEN. Occasionally, there is an odd low number and an odd high number. I’m not surprised that a class exists that OP went to that had 75%. That’s all I’m saying. That it can and does happen. Just because it hasn’t in your experience of just 2 schools in 14 years, doesn’t mean it’s not happening in other classes in other schools.

In a class of 56 children in my previous job there were 6 children with SEN just 6. I don’t believe 75% is possible

I know that’s why I said it’s a statistical outlier.

Fair enough you say you’re just talking about your own experience, I’ve read other threads like this one and it usually descends into “practically every kid these days has Sen and it’s the end of the world”
So I just thought I’d add my personal experience dc currently year 3, 32 kids in class and maybe 3-5 Sen. Pretty similar to when I was at school.

I believe this. I work in a selective independent school and most classes are about 30%. So in the state sector I am not surprised at all.

I've just been reading my dc school send report to the governors (available on the school website). Not many dc with ehcp's but a lot with the kind of SEN that doesn't come with extra funding. And a few who started year 7 unable to read, despite having been to primary school. Which I was surprised at in a mainstream secondary school. I thought my dc with moderate learning disabilities and an ehcp would be one of the most severe sen children in his mainstream secondary school but after reading that report I don't think he is at all, not by a long stretch.