Are you aware of the amount of SEN/additional needs pupils in class?

[yetiflowerpumpkin]

I’ve put this in chat rather than anywhere else because I just want to highlight the scale of SEN/additional needs in schools. In my experience, and reading on MN, some parents aren’t aware of the issues school staff face in supporting these students.

I am an experienced cover teacher in a medium sized primary school. In the classes I cover there are 25-30 children.

As an example, in two of the classes 75% of the pupils have additional educational needs. Some are diagnosed, others are on the (years long) waiting list. Some have multiple needs (Autism, ADHD, AuDHD, SEMH, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, physical/visual impairment and other medical needs, some life threatening). I don’t think in any class I cover there is less than 40%.

I think some parents think their child is the only child with needs in class and cannot understand why those needs are sometimes not met. In the ideal world all those needs would be met, but there isn’t a possibility in mainstream with lack of support staff, lack of space and lack of funding.

I try and do my best (my own family are neurodivergent) but I know my best isn’t good enough for some parents.

Does it surprise you the amount of additional needs there are in class?

Yes, I feel sorry for you having to experience it and it is a cheek😀

Whst rubbish! Tell me gou know nothing about special l needs without telling me you know nothing about special l needs! Do you tbink they all present a certain way?
Why would thete be such a long waiting list for SEN diagnosis if your child can just pick out which kids have them?

@Carycach4how is that rubbish? I’m not making it up, I’m talking about the children at my kids school. Yes some of those children are waiting for diagnosis, their parents are pretty open about it and discuss it! I didn’t say my child can pick them out, I said my child has come home and told me things such as Billy’s sister doesn’t talk. Children are very black and white and factual at a young age. They’re at a small school so maybe it’s more obvious. Yes perhaps there are more children with needs that I don’t know about but I’m talking about the ones I do when someone further up thread said you wouldn’t know if kids in your child’s class had additional needs

Of course, but I want them to be inclusive too. They're a public service!

@ShowmetheMapletree Sorry, I wasn't clear. I was trying to add to your point, not disagree with it. I was actually referring to @rainbowsandraspberrygin who seemed to object to @twinkletoesimnot 's suggested list of contributing factors to increased challenges in school.

I think some parents think their child is the only child with needs in class and cannot understand why those needs are sometimes not met.

No, I know my child is not the only one. I also know why children’s needs are sometimes not met.

I also know that my job as a parent is to advocate for my child, and to ensure that they aren’t traumatised by their education, as well as to ensure they are able to access said education. So that’s what I do. I am respectful of staff who are doing their best, but I am not going to accept my child’s needs going unmet. Are you suggesting that I should?

If we all just accept it, then nothing will improve within the system for either pupils or staff

Thanks so much for the mention Billy.

and yes it was because twinkly something listed a whole host of possible contributing factors - some of which I felt were stepping too far and just adds to the parent guilt. Namely that childcare from a young age can lead to attachment issues.

I then went on to discuss other things that may contribute inc funding and more awareness of additional needs. the curriculum now is quite rigid with such high expectations and teachers are expected to do more with less. Many children can’t thrive this way.

Theres also not the specialist support in mainstream as a teacher is in charge of around 30 kids a there’s limited TA support. The system is set to fail.

Thank you for being respectful. Some parents however are not. Parents will vent at me and my colleagues but we are not the ones preventing any support. We’d actually welcome it with open arms. But there isnt much out there. Teachers aren’t in charge of funding, sadly. We know what our pupils need, we just can’t provide it.

Really feel for teachers in this position. It’s so unfair

I’ve been there fwiw

Does not surprise me. Experienced teacher of 14 years as well as SENDCo. Obviously this varies from class to class. My reception class of 17 has 7 children with a diagnosis or in the process of, as well as about 4/5 that could potentially go down a diagnosis route.

What is also concerning the lack of funding for these children. Especially the less extreme cases of SEND chn. Schools are expected to fund the first £6000 of each child’s SEND support. Please also bear in mind for each child the school only receives £4610 as standard (that is supposed to cover all staffing, resources, utility bills, etc). But that £6000 you need to account for before applying for SEND funding has to be accounted for against their SEND provision and cannot include any of the list above (running of the school). The education is corrupt. If we have 7 children in just one class that’s £42,000 out of the school budget before we can even apply for any additional SEND funds.

Within 10 years more then 50% of people will be ND which will actually make them NT and the ND will be NT

Sorry I lost this post before but wanted to refer back to it.

This kind of front loaded support where the child has access to specialist provision early on and then transitions back into mainstream later doesn't seem to exist any more. And 20 years doesn't seem like that long ago, TBH.

dms1, do you know if when your DS was diagnosed, it was standard for any autistic child to be offered a place in specialist nursery? Were his needs quite extreme at that time?

It feels like today, partially because children are stuck on waiting lists and partially perhaps because there are many more children being diagnosed with things like ADHD and ASD, the children are simply being left in MS provision because there is no clear indication that they require specialist provision, which makes very little sense if you are looking at a child who is really struggling. I know that not all children with SEN will need specialist provision but it almost feels like they are being left to sink or swim, and then offered swimming lessons after the near-drowning, which seems bizarre because surely any idiot could see that if you do it that way around, they are going to need much more intensive support to get anywhere. Rather than if they were given some support from the start whether they need it or not, they may have a chance to not have such intense needs in the first place.

But I do also know that in reality there isn't enough resource to give every child who could possibly benefit from it early support, and in a way they kind of are forced to just let them struggle and see which ones sink in order that they can offer support to the barest minimum it just seems very very wrong.

(If this double posted several hours apart I apologise, I left it open in a tab earlier and now I can't tell if I posted it or not!)

Could you possibly show your working out on this one? To me it sounds like an empty statement with numbers plucked out of the air but go on, I'll bite, where's it come from?

But I do also know that in reality there isn't enough resource to give every child who could possibly benefit from it early support, and in a way they kind of are forced to just let them struggle and see which ones sink in order that they can offer support to the barest minimum

I get this but I found it frusting they often tried to hide this so would instead they'd insist the kids were fine till they couldn't or blame parenting or push dates out where something might happen or kids might just catch up.

I'm very greatful DD1 Yr 1 teacher and later DS said in her view what they needed but school SENCO was saying no - so we could put support in at home mostly we ask how we could help kids and get shrugs. Even simple things like moving them when they got next to a classmate who set them off was too much for some teachers.

I guess there will need to be a whole table of 'need' that = teacher time = money parent has to pay.
Obviously this won't just be due to sen..
.. child that's not very academic = ££
.. child with lots of friendship issues = ££
.. child with EAL = ££
.. child who is very academically bright needing lots if extension work = ££
.. child who needs more attention in class due to emotional needs eg losing a parent = ££
.. child who is a young carer/sib = ££
.. child who has social care involvement = ££
The list is pretty endless... and obviously a fucking ridiculous and appalling idea

Huh?! Please add the link for this

I think it’s happening already. We as a business do a lot of work experience with a local college. 20 years ago we had maybe one person declare a SEN. now it’s about 50;50

They become like this. If a school has lots of Sen students it gets a rep for being capable of supporting them so attracts more, and the academically gifted kids tend to leave. If a school is rubbish at Sen then word spreads and these families stay away or leave. The better they do at their job (to include!) the harder a schools job becomes!

Of course. Everyone can agree on that. But it's a state service to be funded by the state.

Would you charge a child in a wheelchair for a ramp? A refugee for an interpreter? An orphan for therapy? Or is it just ND you have issue with?

So the children without SEN are now the minority? Wow. What on earth is happening? Perhaps just swap it around and put the non-SEN in special school. They’re the ones who are going to be left to run the ship.

Sorry - left to run the ship? Please explain?

YY it's the gaslighting that really gets you. I sometimes feel I have emotional whiplash with how fast DC's school goes from "This is unsustainable, we really can't manage this situation" to just sort of vaguely scheduling a meeting weeks/months in the future, or other professionals saying "Let's see how he gets on" with a head tilt as though he's having a bit of first day nerves.

"Them?" Are you saying ND children cannot be academically gifted? It isn't an either/or. My dc is AuADHD and achieving higher, above most NT classmates. Infact I suspect the hyperfocussing has been dc's superpower. You may want to look up the celebrities and high flyers of the world who are wired differently; it might educate you!

I shouldn’t worry everyone. The VAT from private schools will fill the gap so that every child will reach their full potential to be able to contribute to society. Slow laugh.

In my sons secondary school there was a SEN lunch table and there might be 10 - 15 kids like my son or with eg Downs etc. That was for a school with many hundreds of pupils. Higher level Sen is at the 5 percentile marker and below which by definition is 5/100 kids.

The extreme / higher needs are on the 1/100 pr 1/200 kids.

You might have someone with language on the 30 centile and their needs would not be excessive - they are marginally less able.

Most SEN needs are in the universal level - you know that. There is no additional funding and it’s met within the school existing budget out of a notional SEN fund

The kids with HC/ LI are by definition not that many. My son has a high care needs budget personal to him

It helps to talk about percentile

eg My son stats

Motor coordination 0.5 1-200 kids
receptive language 1 percentile 1/100
semantic pragmatic 0.75 perf percentile

This is the type of need to get 1:1 LSA support

Anything less and it’s maybe small group maths / English etc that’s it.