Are you aware of the amount of SEN/additional needs pupils in class?

[yetiflowerpumpkin]

I’ve put this in chat rather than anywhere else because I just want to highlight the scale of SEN/additional needs in schools. In my experience, and reading on MN, some parents aren’t aware of the issues school staff face in supporting these students.

I am an experienced cover teacher in a medium sized primary school. In the classes I cover there are 25-30 children.

As an example, in two of the classes 75% of the pupils have additional educational needs. Some are diagnosed, others are on the (years long) waiting list. Some have multiple needs (Autism, ADHD, AuDHD, SEMH, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, physical/visual impairment and other medical needs, some life threatening). I don’t think in any class I cover there is less than 40%.

I think some parents think their child is the only child with needs in class and cannot understand why those needs are sometimes not met. In the ideal world all those needs would be met, but there isn’t a possibility in mainstream with lack of support staff, lack of space and lack of funding.

I try and do my best (my own family are neurodivergent) but I know my best isn’t good enough for some parents.

Does it surprise you the amount of additional needs there are in class?

Seeing it in nursery’s also which is causing staff to leave as there is no extra support. We are still expected to do so much and follow routines with children with needs that trigger other children’s needs. As they are in nursery they don’t often have a diagnosis so there is little help. It’s miserable.

Thats a much, much higher percentage than national averages for those on ehcps and sen support. I dont think its right to paint that the average picture. s

But i do think I think its absolutely fair to acknowledge there is a very high level of need in mainstream schools with more average levels on sen, and that it is very hard for teachers to meet all those needs and sometimes impossible if the needs clash. It must be exhausting and I feel for teachers who have to deliver a failing system.

Schools all have different cohorts, different environments and different staff capabilities so its not clear cut. But it is also fair to say some schools do better with the resources they have than others and some schools could do better at supporting pupils.

Can you explain why you think I am?

I'm aware because my child is disabled. I don't know of any parents of children with SEND who aren't aware but it isn't going to stop them advocating for their children.

I did list out the additional needs. I did not include asthma or glasses.

The visual impairment I raised is that this child has to have resources made for them with a large font.

Other medical needs can be things like cerebral palsy where the child needs support from an adult to do regular physio.

Thanks. Yes that’s why I included the term additional needs. It’s not just SEN.

Plus there is SEMH but this usually coincides with the SEN and additional needs.

I think it depends. Dc is AuADHD and incidents that have occurred were usually things that could have been avoided. It is usually a case (in our particular situation) of temporary teachings assistants being inappropriate. One asked why my dc was using ND as an excuse for being scared in a dark toilet, this is an 8 year old child who had the guts to tell them of medical diagnosis.

Another permanent teaching assistant made a huge song and dance about something very insignificant, then wondered why dc was laughing and crying at the same time after had been completely invalidated. This member of staff even smirked while telling us it was so weird (a huge reaction, and one of the most painful for my dc). This same teaching assistant is repeatedly cropping up again and again causing drama that other staff do not. Another example is her making dc keep reminding her of ND which is obvious when sitting there in noise lowering headphones and other aides. It is evident she does not believe in it.
We love the amazing members of staff who are incredibly supportive; this means the world to us.

The head of year even told us they actually do not have a huge percentage of ND children in dc's particular year. We are finding there can be a lot of ignorance, and some staff that just do not believe in it.

We are absolutely respectful of their resources and time, letting a lot go as realise they do their best. However, I do not tolerate ignorance, and unnecessary distress caused due to it.

Just under 25% of the children at my child's school get SEN support.

Absolutely. Parents need to advocate but there’s only so much I can do with the resources available to me. I just keep referring it up to management but there’s no money so we’re just kind of stuck.

As someone who works with young children, it’s hard emotionally to not be able to meet their needs. I know we need more support staff, more space for smaller class sizes, external support agencies like SALT and Ed Psych. But there’s no budget for it so we just keep doing the job the best we can.

The children aren’t the problem. The system is.

40-75% seems high especially without context.

My first thought is, if the school system is not working as it is for 75% of children surely there is something wrong with the system.

My second thought is does 75% of the pupils being classed as SEN mean 75% are struggling? Or are they doing OK with accommodations? Is this just a recognition of need on paper or does it reflect difficulties these children have at school? I appreciate that a diagnosed condition is classed as SEN whether or not it's causing difficulties at school.

I appreciate that many of the needs may be different to each other. Where some overlap, does it make sense for these to become more blanket policies?

I wonder if your school is considered "good" for SEN in the local area or whether the staff are more likely to apply for SEN documentation (sorry not sure of correct term) compared with other schools locally or nationally - are the 75% classes support classes? Are you in a deprived area?

What is your view on SENDIASS coming into schools, for help with understanding the needs of specific children? Is this helpful to staff?

Yip, and a lot of kids are also suffering from truama due to poor early life choices by parents and it all adds up to having additional needs and this could have been prevented, allowing those who are on the spectrum to have the attention they need/deserve.
Flame me all you like but it is true

Some staff do need training and that takes time (and money). I absolutely agree with that.

Some TAs do earn less p.h. than if they were working in a supermarket, so we don’t always retain staff.

Years ago, when I first went into specific SEND teaching, it was expected that 3 in a class of 30, would have a need that was additional to or different from, the rest of the class. That was the wording used then. In hindsight, I think that was an underestimate, but the Code of Practice expected that only a small percentage of pupils would require so much additional help that their needs could only be met with a statement of SEND, the precursor to an EHCP. The majority of need was deemed to be able to be met from the resources of the school.

I think an increased understanding of some conditions has meant that more pupils do have a need of some sort, whether that means minimal or significant intervention. The numbers have increased and may well be the high number quoted in the OP, but I’d be surprised if that is a percentage generally.

Like many things, I suspect the figure is somewhere in the middle. What is clear, is that there is more and greater need for some pupils, at a time when schools have fewer and fewer resources to manage that need and the specialist services, intended to support schools have been decimated too.

Yes there are lots of sen children in schools, however the curriculum is too fast, too hard, moves too quickly, which causes some children to become behind or overwhelmed.

The world is so more faster and there is so much information to process than 20 years ago, phones have decreased attention spans hugely, and are given to children to keep them quiet but in practice they struggle when not on them.

Parents are so much busier than 10 years ago, and have less time to support learning and reinforcement of information.

We confuse children with inconsistent behaviour expectations, and then become surprised when the behaviour doesn’t match the expectation.

Add in also the increasing information that ours brains do not all work the same, and the one size fits all doesn’t actually work anymore.

Also ad in that up until the 80’s lots of children with Sen weren’t even in school, they were in residential care.

I teach in an academically selective state school and we have around 15% of pupils with SEN

Better recognition of send needs and underfunding in education means those who would have had support/early intervention before (and possibly never diagnosed) now don't, meaning a diagnosis is more likely to be considered.

I'm a supply teacher. Taught for 29 years in mainstream schools (24 in the same school) and I'd say that 30% of all primary classes I taught/teach in have some level of SEND. It's definitely got worse as my career has progressed.

@yetiflowerpumpkin this. Plus the fact that every variation in ability, social skills or behaviour now has to have an SEN label. 'Gentler' parenting and Covid fallout amongst other things are also major factors in children's readiness for formal learning.
Education hasn't kept pace at all with changes in society. Teachers have such a tough job these days.
Outcome- exclusions and EBSA at an all time high. Not to mention the highest level ever of NEETs.as a product of a failing education system and successive dire government over decades.

I believe you. I’m a Health Vistor. When I started HV maybe up to 5 children had SEN in a big caseload. Now it feels like almost every family is impacted. Furthermore, there used to be a lot of community resources to help families that just don’t exist anymore. SEN places have been drastically reduced too. I’m a mother of a child with ASD (he’s 23 now). Back then he got a place in SEN nursery & primary school until P3. He then had classroom assistance until 5th year. By A level he was completely independent and able to manage a school day. He’s now at Uni reading Maths & Physics, and best of all, he’s made friends. I count myself very lucky. Children nowadays don’t reach the end of a waiting list until they’re well into primary school, by which time those precious first 1001 days have long passed. My son has done so well on account of early intervention for which I’m eternally grateful. I feel sad for families now & teachers. What breaks my heart most is the parents of adult children with needs who have no help or respite because those community programs no longer exist. Looking after a SEN child is a 24/7 job. Its a dire situation.

Honestly I know a lot of kids in DD6s class have SEN, less so in DSs class but still a good number. DD is dyslexic, but so are me and her dad so I’ve kind of always worked off the assumption she would be. She gets some help in school but because I know her teachers have a lot to deal with I’ve kind of focused on getting her additional help outside of school and showing her things that helped me. It’s working pretty well, and don’t get me wrong school are good and her teachers are lovely, but I know they’re under resourced.

As for DS5, I have a very strong suspicion he is autistic. I got diagnosed at 16, and I see a lot of parallels with him. I want him to get a formal diagnosis because it really helped me and I know he needs that to get the support from school. With DD I feel I can support her and make up for the areas the school lacks in (even tho she is diagnosed dyslexic as well) but I can’t really do that with DS. I also worry that because he’s academically bright and not disruptive he may miss out on the support he needs because the teacher is focused on the high support needs kids in his class who are disruptive.

I really feel for the teachers and I know all parents just want what’s best for their kids, but sometimes it does feel like fighting over resources. I know both the kids will be fine in the end, they’re bright enough and I can support them both academically and they tend to go to DH for social/friendship issues which is great.

Sendiass are an impartial (note not independent) advice service for families (who sometimes do some vague advocacy if you're lucky in our area). how are they helping staff understand sen needs? They have no training/quals in any specific send.

Do they all use the additional support that they are given? When I was invigilating mocks before Christmas I was asked to monitor who was using the additional support and the ones who weren’t.

any child who didn’t use the additional support will be getting it removed.

In my children’s classes, it’s 23% and 37%. Overall the school is a third SEN. This is a small private school. I moved my daughter as she was in the class with 37% and it wasn’t working for her. It doesn’t appear to have any impact on my son.

I’m more than happy for any help to be given to schools to support the needs of children.