Justine says MN is too mean and will tighten-up moderation

[noblegiraffe]

Justine posted this on a low-traffic thread in AIBU and I think it deserves a wider audience than it is currently getting, especially as it is asking posters to report low-level sniping and pile-ons. Perhaps a bigger announcement is planned, I don't know.

"Thanks for raising this - it's something we've been discussing internally as we've noticed the same shift you’re describing and we agree it’s something we need to get a much firmer grip on. Debate is part of Mumsnet’s DNA, but unnecessary meanness isn’t, and it helps absolutely no one.
We’ve already put a plan in place to tighten things up. It’s not just about deleting the really obvious personal attacks, but tackling the low-level sniping and pile ons that drain the life out of threads and discourage people from posting in the first place. That means more proactive involvement from us earlier in a thread, not just sweeping up afterwards.
One thing that really helps is reporting. There are around 25,000 posts a day on here, so we really don’t see that much in real time. If something feels off, please do report it. We promise to read things in context and we’d much rather step in early than let a thread spiral.
Most people on here genuinely want to give support or perspective. When that gets drowned out by needless nastiness, everyone loses. So thank you to everyone who’s raised this. We hear you, we agree with you, and we’re working on it."

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5442610-the-current-state-of-mn-and-how-do-i-stop-reading?reply=148524522&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Of course. People are not taught how to debate or respect a different point of view in our schools/universities. This is the fallout and it's exactly the same in the workplace as well. Completely incapable of understanding a different point of view.
MNHQ better be careful or it's just going to become one sided and dull.

What I’ve found very hard to tolerate on here lately, of course somewhat personal to me, are the explicitly stated views that disabled children should be institutionalised, left to die, not given any welfare benefits, have no value, no quality of life (without knowing said child:mine btw), that euthanasia for the elderly should be encouraged, blatant intentional misinformation about Motability(I mean people have Google, right?), that having a severely disabled child is not the taxpayers problem, that empathy has run out for the disabled, that the purse is empty so inevitably they will starve on the streets (sometimes with the added bonus of saying that’s just survival of the fittest)…
MN sometimes deletes the posts, sometimes not.
In the UK the Communications Act makes it illegal to send online messages that are “grossly offensive” or indecent, obscene or menacing”. That includes posting anonymously on a website.

Hate that I used AI to pull the wording but for the sake of expediency the wording is:

A person is guilty of an offence if they send to another person any letter, electronic communication or article of any description which conveys—
(a) a message that is indecent or grossly offensive,
(b) a threat, or
(c) information which is false and known or believed to be false by the sender,
provided the person intends to cause distress or anxiety to the recipient.

The law applies to:

• texts
• emails
• social media posts
• forum posts
• private messages

So while I and others can patiently refer over and over again to how Motability works and its purpose etc. no-one hesitates to post completely unfounded and vacuous lies about people who require Motability services. I think I’ve only encountered one poster who acknowledged she’d got it wrong. not before she’d asked me with faux naivety whether it was me or her who pays for my daughter’s WAV (she assumed I didn’t work or pay taxes, and likewise for my husband without asking).
I don’t see the person starting off the false “facts” having posts deleted though.

Misinformation is a big problem
i think on threads about benefits/ asylum seekers and immigration. Some of the posts almost feel like inciting hatred.

I agree @Overthemhills . There was a thread titled "taxes to rise to pay for PIP" or something like that. That's not about debate, it's about pushing a nasty agenda against disabled people.

This hits the nail on the head.
'The professionally offended woke' have sucked the joy out of most things.

What joy is there in promoting ill feeling against people with disabilities?

But the problem is you get a poster say that the benefits bill isn’t sustainable and then they get piled on ‘oh so you want disabled people to die’

theres just no nuance - it’s all battle lines drawn and no leeway given

and you can only change people’s views by open minded debate - not shouting them down and telling them to shut up

Surely phrases like "woke" and "professionally offended" are just ways of trying to shut the conversation down when it goes in a direction that you don't like? "Virtue signalling" is another phrase that often gets wheeled out by the same people.

Perhaps people just have a different perspective on things?

I cannot comment on the specifics of why your posts were deleted as I haven't seen them, but if you have been told that they are racist, then perhaps it is time for some self-reflection?

I have found that people are unaware, or at least claim to be, about how Anti-Semitic they are. Like any other kind of racism, it is worth listening to minority voices to educate oneself.

Here is a recognised definition of Anti-Semitism, it is worth reading.
holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism

I use to engage on the FWR board but I felt it was hijacked by six posters who within minutes were on the thread. It made me think that they sat searching for certain words throughout the day. They were vile about anyone from the LGBT community.

If they turn up on any of my posts now I just ignore them because we can't block them. I've name changed and no longer discuss my family situation yet I'd love to update the people who did help me many years ago.

There's a rather big difference between expressing concern about the benefits bill - far more of which is expenditure on pensions and related benefits than on the disabled - and saying things like "Bring back work houses", which I've seen in the past week.

Posters calling people 'woke' who don't agree with their views are annoying AF too,

There is indeed but I’ve seen threads where they have started on the former and then just descended into the op being called ableist etc

its on everything that gets a little contentious - it’s almost like a group hysteria (cue me being cancelled because ‘don’t you know the history of that word’

but there is so much irritating on here

• people who don’t read the thread and comment when it’s all explained in OP
• people who don’t read the thread or even the OPs updates and comment after about 500 posts

it is very frustrating - maybe I should go and see what Reddit is like!!

You can block people on Reddit 😂

I get where you are coming from and in another post I also said that people are not taught at our schools/universities to debate and respect the other point of view.
For me 'woke and professionally offended' describes those that have to take offence at everything, over and over again. This is not people having a different perspective. They are there to suck the joy out of everything. There is no debate with them. No argument.

I may be converted!!

You cannot have a real conversation on Reddit. It is completely over regulated and therefore quite bland if you want a debate.

And such a coincidence that the worst ones tend to start up when they know it's only the Night Watch on duty...

I use Reddit and it is better moderated than here. There were the threads on the Peterborough railway attack and those were outrageous. Those were hateful, racist and spiteful. That should have been removed, imo

Yes. I have been surprised at how much racism there is on Mumsnet and how it is allowed to stand. Especially when verbalised by articulate and ‘polite’ regular posters who are clever enough not to use directly racist language, but you can tell exactly what they are saying.

As a non-white person, I avoid threads about racism now because racist comments are allowed to stand, and people fall over themselves to minimise it and gaslight. When I challenged someone once about racism, without swearing etc, my comment got deleted and I never found out why.

I also avoid the Middle East conflict board now because of the nastiness that was allowed to stand there.

I do go to the style and beauty threads as they are largely positive. It would be great to discuss heavier topics though without the nasty undercurrent.

Wholly agree with you. So many lies.

The title of one thread, about immigrants was blatant lies yet reporting brought the typical response of ‘this is a site for discussion’.

I supplied government reports as evidence of the truth.

I also went back to MN to point out that PP’s will skim the trending/active thread list, read the title and assume the title it is true, without even opening the thread to find out any more information.

It really is dangerous. ‘Misinformation’ does break the MN talk guidelines yet the thread stood.

I concluded that MN is more concerned with traffic and clicks, than the truth and plays no part in correcting misinformation.

I agree on the racism - the Peterborough threads were quite shocking

i feel like people should be able to state a view and be challenged on it but the threads just seem to descend into people trying to defend themselves

What about blatant antisemitism?

Hi thanks, someone also responded earlier. Tbh I mainly used it to report ads and cons, as I generally believe in free speech whether I agree with the content or not. I tolerate opinions I find unpleasant, but draw the line at intentional misinformation about supposed facts.

However at this point MN allows entirely factually incorrect made up crud to stand as potential facts because (I assume) it drives traffic to the site.

I don't actually particularly want these posts removed, where it is clearly made up guff, I want MN to sticky them with this assertion is not factual, if they wish to let them stand. They are so obviously posted to goad and spread misinformation and hatred and MN apparently thinks that's fine.

As a PP said They are factually incorrect and the current stance of "well we let posters correct them" just looks like other people have a different opinion. Rather than it being clear it's factually incorrect

These are the sort of stances that lead me to believe MN knows exactly what it is doing, and these are simply business strategies. It seems to be in MN's financial interests to allow misinformation to be spread which is sad.

Hatred helps drive traffic.
It's very sad as having been here a long time and previously been very supportive of MN when it had issues, I can't see any other reason why a parenting site would reduce itself from a reasonably respected community of mutual parent to parent support to what they have allowed it to become if they didn't see the monetizing of hatred as just a business strategy.
I will be very happy to be wrong.

But the problem is you get a poster say that the benefits bill isn’t sustainable and then they get piled on ‘oh so you want disabled people to die’

That is not what happens though and "the benefits bill isn’t sustainable" it is often not how the threads are framed.

I have been on loads of those threads in the past and the hate for disabled people who receive any sort of state support is clear from some posters. I don't bother going on them now as it is pointless.