For all the disabled people who cannot work to the standard of a non-disabled, what would you rather happen to them?

[KeenTaupeDog]

1. work in a job with RAs like access to specialist software, less time but less pay, extra time to finish exams
2. no RAs in their jobs, they have to live off benefits instead
3. no benefits for them, live off charity and family/friends

I believe in a basic universal income. ‘Disabled’ can mean a thousand different things. Plenty of people can work with reasonable adjustments and should be supported to do so. Plenty of people can’t work and deserve dignity and quality of life regardless. Most people want to work or at least be meaningfully occupied in some way, and I think people who are unable to work should have opportunities to contribute in other ways, and be supported to do so.

What I’ve tended to see a lot in workplace mental health is people who have no choice financially but to work, but their disability is such that reasonable adjustments can only go so far. For example, severe mental health conditions that involve disturbed perception of reality & extreme interpersonal difficulty, or ND conditions or OCD involving such need for control and predictability that they can’t collaborate with others. For some people in this category, work is detrimental to their health, and their behaviour at work when dysregulated can be inappropriate and harmful to others (particularly others with fragile mental health themselves, and before you know it there’s a domino effect with whole chunks of the workforce off sick with stress in particular teams and departments).

(I work with an industry that attracts highly compulsive people, so this sort of thing takes up huge amounts of HR & management & mental health time and budget and it’s not at all clear what the answer is - when someone is intellectually very well suited to a job but emotionally unstable, often out of touch with reality, and incapable of working constructively with others.)

1. I would want every disabled person to be as productive as possible. This would probably involve doing some work for the state in lots of cases where it wasn't feasible or realistic for them to work in the private sector. I strongly believe that almost everyone has the ability to do something that would add value to society. Even if it's something that we currently wouldn't hire someone to do, it is still better that they do this rather than stay at home claiming benefits.

Payment for the hours worked would be minimum wage or higher if it was work that would have otherwise needed to be done by someone on more than MW. People would be topped up by benefits so that they earn the equivalent of current out of work benefits for disabled people so it wouldn't cost the country anymore money but would improve productivity and deliver a load of benefits to the disabled people themselves in terms of self esteem and skill development.

There could be a range of opportunities in all sorts of areas and we could really make great improvements to our society and environment. Work could be diverse and involve more sedentary jobs like DWP call centre type roles and more active roles like litter picking or painting park benches etc.

Yet.

Does manipulating some kind posters in to telling you what you want to hear make you happy op? Are you happy?

you clearly want someone to go there.

Well bad news for you and OP, this and the other thread aren't going there at all.

One of the issues with disability, chronic illness and pain is that absence policies are against you. No one wants the unreliable person and ultimately being disabled / chronically ill can make me unreliable at times. You then have the fear that going off sick or indeed my child being sick will trigger the absence policy and I’ll be expected to improve the unimprovable.

i also think that post Covid we are seeing a lot more people struggle to work because the after effects of that have been devastating.

We definitely need to really think about how employment works in general for everyone, and take extra care to accommodate people who can't just get up on Monday and put in a 40 hour week, or whatever.

But treating equally does not mean treating both people exactly the same, surely you understand that?

Some of us are replying because threads like these deliberately fan flames about disabled people getting sweet treatment, just like on the PIP threads, and feel its best to contribute something for the lurkers to read, rather than leave the bots and trolls to spread their conspiracies unchallenged...

I don't have an opinion on reasonable or unreasonable. I do have an opinion on your insistence that every single person who has an issue with your adjustments is "envious". This does make me suspect your adjustments are either NOT reasonable, or that you have a bit of an attitude linked to them that is pissing people off. [shrug]

Me too, similar worries to you. I think people's ability to write whatever hateful and unreasonable thought is in their heads, onto an online forum is making things so much worse

the thread title is goady for whatever reason

the actual comments are very very different.

@KeenTaupeDog I'd like to see them all live off charity or family and friends. If there aren't enough charitable funds to go round, or they haven't got any family, then I think they should graciously starve to death in the street. That includes you of course OP should your life ever take an unfortunate turn and you find yourself sick or disabled. Remember, it can happen at the toss of a dime to anyone.

I'm not, no (a German language speaker) Care to elaborate. Or are you referring to the Nazis treatment of all the minority groups? What I remember from history that the Austrians got the brunt of it at the start.

PS that last sentence was just a by the way as I plough through my memory

My nephew is brain damaged after brain surgery and can’t speak, communicate or control his eye movement. What jobs should I suggest he applies for, and how would he apply? Or understand that he was going to get a job…

Equal does mean the same. I think you mean treating them with equity instead. Equality and equitability are not the same, and we should be striving for equitability.

No but there are a lot of jobs people could do. How many people have to give up work because of RTO mandates when they could work perfectly well from home (and did during the pandemic) but are now being told they can't so have to leave?

If you eg have migraines or IBS you can work perfectly well. But you may need to be able to lie down sometimes or get to a loo frequently. It should be public policy that those people are employed, not having to leave because of macho bosses.

Tell me you've never had migraine without telling me

I think the first port of call should be the government subsiding wages and paying it to the company rather than the individual so that those who need adjustments cost less to hire. Where people want to work, I’d be okay if the welfare bill increased as the government was subsidising wages and sick pay for those with disabilities. The biggest travesty is that there are disabled people who would be capable of some work, would want to work but employers can’t make sufficient adjustments or they cost more to employ than they generate.

I read your previous thread @KeenTaupeDog and didn't comment but will comment here as I don't think you get it.

Employers don't care if they specifically hire disabled people and want someone in who will do as good a job as possible for the least money. The principles of all private companies are: cheaper, faster and/or something new. Coworkers are also not that invested in keeping disabled people employed and will almost always resent anything that adds to their workload or the perception that a co-worker is slacking or having it easy. Everyone is just grinding away in a bad employment market. Government schemes (and the people employed to run them) aim to get more disabled people in the workforce and they are sort of invested in numbers (not individuals), but again they are not hiring that much themselves and a lot of the schemes to incentivise private employers to engage are shutting down or facing issues with funding.
I work in IT and a lot of people are neurodivergent and express this in different ways. They may have reasonable adjustments like screen filters, noise cancelling headphones, wfh, avatar instead of camera on during calls etc which are available to most employees if needed, but they still fill the terms of their job description and do not negatively impact others. They are there because they are good at their jobs. The way to succeed at a career is through excellence. Be the specialist in key operations and your quirks won't matter.
I hope you take this on and excel as it is definitely possible, you just have to get yourself out of the mindset that other people are there to help as it is rarely the case.

So why am I told that being kind is a core value in society when in reality, nobody cares about a disabled colleague?

"Be kind" is just words for children to encourage good behaviour or words to control. Either way, just words. You should look at the truth of actions. In reality, everyone is playing their own game of life that includes their family and friends at best. You must have realised this surely?

I'm tempted to say it would be nice if the hard-of-thinking were denied access to social media, but that would be rude.

So why do i get told off for pointing out that most ppl are selfish and won't help strangers, only themselves and family/close friends

Humans are an inherently selfish species.
I will be resentful and ‘not care’ about a disabled colleague if it impacts me
In the same way, you will want me to accommodate your disability and ‘not care’ about the adverse effects that will have on me