For all the disabled people who cannot work to the standard of a non-disabled, what would you rather happen to them?

[KeenTaupeDog]

1. work in a job with RAs like access to specialist software, less time but less pay, extra time to finish exams
2. no RAs in their jobs, they have to live off benefits instead
3. no benefits for them, live off charity and family/friends

Thanks.

Asylums.
It's the only solution.
Only provide bread and water, maybe gruel on Sundays.
No activities. No daylight.
Out of sight....out of mind.
SARCASTIC OBVIOUSLY

Is she in pain? Does she have to take medication that has side effects? Does she have chronic fatigue? What about fits? Does she understand the work she is doing and what is expected of her?

As the mother of a disabled DD who has a range of physical and neurological conditions and is never likely to be able to work or live independently I am becoming increasingly scared for her future, particularly when I am no longer there to advocate for her.

Just reading this thread title made me feel sick.

That is why what that poster said, about thinking that every disabled person can work, is basically talking .... Just because this Woman can, means nothing to me. Good for the Woman though!

Well there are lots of jobs I couldn't do to the same standard as the current job holder, even without any disability. However, of course reasonable adjustments should be made because it's better for individuals and society to have people working where possible. And, of course, we should support people who are unable to work because we're civilised people (treat others as you would like to be treated).

May it's worth reflecting on how we are in this mess thanks to able bodied people ? Nobody seems to want to mention that.

It's a good question.

There are too many people who don't understand that their desire for more disabled people to work doesn't automatically create roles where everyone can generate more value than it costs to employ them.

I think that everyone who is unemployed should get benefits in order to maintain a basic standard of living until they can find employment (if working is possible).

I think reasonable adjustments that don't impact negatively on other employees are fantastic, and should be encouraged. In cases where the adjustments wouldn't negatively affect the business, I think they should in fact be extended to all employees (such as more working from home days).

However, I think that people should NOT apply for jobs they know will heavily involve tasks they are unable to accomplish due to their own level of (dis)ability. An unfit, physically weaker person should not apply to work as a roughneck on an offshore oil rig, a person with impaired vision should not seek to become a pilot, and someone who finds interactions with others to be untenable should not apply for a customer service job.

You clarify that people in the first list of disabilities. - which you clearly see as “proper” disabilities - should receive support if unable to work but do not extend the same thinking to those who have non-visible disabilities which can be just as impactful on their ability to work.

Surely it should be the case that reasonable adjustments should be provided to anyone who has a disability (and mental health/neurodivergence would come under this umbrella) to enable them to work where possible and if it’s not possible, then they should be entitled to appropriate support from the state.

However, I think that people should NOT apply for jobs they know will heavily involve tasks they are unable to accomplish due to their own level of (dis)ability. An unfit, physically weaker person should not apply to work as a roughneck on an offshore oil rig, a person with impaired vision should not seek to become a pilot, and someone who finds interactions with others to be untenable should not apply for a customer service job

Sure. That happens regularly then, I take it🙄. Disabled people do tend to know their own limitations.

Do they really.

There is a thread on here recently that I unfollowed, as I no longer wanted to see it about neurodiverse people: autism or adhd, or both and adjustments they would want making in the workplace.

Apparently it's entirely acceptable for them to know their limitations and demand not to have to do the things they don't want to do in a job. For example, starting work on time: they should be able to start later because the transport's too stressful for them. They should be able to not have to do phone calls.If it makes them selectively mute or causes them anxiety. The list went on and on and on and everybody else was just expected to pick up their slack.

The entitlement from people who considered themselves neurodiverse, probably without even a formal diagnosis was astonishing.

With that particular issue, it seems they know their limitations and want a job that involves things they know they cant do or don't want to do but expect not to have to do it.

OP - starting a new thread because your old thread wasn't going the way you liked is not a terribly useful way to actually get feedback and ideas.

I think most (all) people will say option 1.

However I work at a local council and the reality is many colleagues and managers don't really understand reasonable adjustments or why people need them and get resentful if colleagues "don't pull their weight" and ime often leads to bullying.

Well you would have to define ‘disabled’ and ‘work’, for any of that to make sense.

As we’ve seen from the Labour Party, anyone earning over £45,000pa is a ‘non working person’.

Definitions and clarity of the terms is critical here.

Long gone are the days when businesses existed for any reason other than "to make profit for their owners."

Customer service - well, only if it means we get more customers accepting higher prices so increases profit.
Employee wellbeing - well, only if it cuts employment costs and attracts people to work for us without paying them as much.
ETC.

We, as a society, have accepted this as a desireable business model, and of course the downside is that few businesses will make RA unless absolutely forced into it OR there's money to be made from it.

A long time ago there were agencies that worked with people with intellectual differences and certain disabilities to work. They were paid less than minimum wage and were doing specific tasks assigned to them for a few hours a day. You’d find these people bag packing in the supermarket, watering plants in the garden centre or maybe portering in hotels. Just to give some examples. It was deemed that it was illegal for anyone to be paid less than minimum wage and so the jobs went. Often the roles were supernumerary and so Asda wasn’t going to pay full for a role they could easily not have. I knew several people that were working under the scheme, they just disappeared. Their independence and social contact was gone. Was it fair they were paid less? Probably not. Was the ability to pay disabled people less damaging to all disabled people? Probably. Has getting rid of the roles benefited all disabled people? No.

im disabled, I have chronic pain, hyper mobility syndrome, spinal disease and I’m waiting for hip surgery (next week). I’m on long term sick as I cannot sit in a chair, sleep for more than a few hours at time, walk for more than a few minutes or stand for long. The surgery will help with my hip and I hope to go back to my job in the new year. We are going to have a discussion about reasonable adjustments, I’ve spoken to access to work. But reasonable adjustment aim to make me as productive as my colleagues. That will mean I’ve probably got five years left in work and I’ll be returning part time. My home life will be really hard as I’ll be exhausted and in pain at the end of every day. But what else can I do? I’m on a second warning for sickness absence and they will be looking to manage me out if I am off sick again, which due to my disabilities are likely. I take opiates for pain that leave me foggy and still in pain, there is nothing else. I might have spinal surgery at some point but I will always be in pain and exhausted. Lots of disabled people work and want to work and want to not be a burden. That then results in working to live and all of your energy being taken by your job. It’s a rock and a hard place.

The disabled aren’t a homogeneous group!

Some people with disabilities can work to a very high standard, sometimes better than “not disabled” people and/or in specific roles where it’s an advantage.

some people can work effectively but need certain reasonable adjustments

some people need extra help which they get through the access to work scheme but they bring enough to the employer that they are an asset (there’s a lad with learning disabilities at a local cafe, he’s so popular with the customers and people choose that cafe because of him!)

other people have complex needs and disabilities which mean that there really aren’t able to work though some may be able to volunteer with the support from a carer (I have volunteers in that situation, I couldn’t pay them because I’d need to pay another person to actually do the job, but I don’t mind them coming and not actually clearing the tables and mostly getting in the way but they are lovely, just not employable.

There's literally a huge other thread on this going already, and people have repeatedly pointed out that there is clear blue water between "unemployed on benefits and completely unable to work" and "ideal perfect job that no-one without disabilities has either".

To be clear, I wasn't talking about disabled people specifically - all people have different strengths and weaknesses, and shouldn't apply for jobs that wouldn't be a good fit for them. For instance, as someone with severe social anxiety, I personally wouldn't apply for a job that involved more than a minor degree of customer-facing work.
I'm glad you agree with me, though.

If someone becomes mute in certain situations, then it makes little sense to have them answering the phone does it? Not having that as one of the of duties is a reasonable adjustment, which is their right by law.

@KnickerlessParsons

you haven’t met my dsd!

not everyone can work because there’s many adults who don’t have the intellectual capacity to work, and by that I mean they have 24/7 support, cannot prepare even a simple meal, cannot use the toilet without help, cannot leave the room without a carer, needs help with absolutely everything - can’t even make a simple decision like apple or orange juice! Physical disability but no intellectual issues can have reasonable adjustments, the same cannot be said for all

No, actually - not if the job is something like a receptionist, where answering phones is part and parcel of daily working life.

I followed that thread, and that's not what most ND people were saying.

But it's interesting to compare it with a post on Instagram yesterday, with comments from ND people about what their ACTUAL barriers and frustrations in the workplace are. Reduced hours/ reasonable adjustments didn't feature much at all.

Instead there were dozens of comments on how so much energy in the average workplace is wasted on pointless social interactions, sucking up to those higher up in the office hierarchy, and the unbelievable resistance that ND employees face when they suggest that things could be done more efficiently or looked at in a different way - "Oh, but we've always done it like that..." 🙄

Which suggests that the NT obsession with being there at fixed hours and appearing to work hard rather trumps the ND enthusiasm for actually getting the job done in the best way possible.

Massive generalisation of course, but I'm sick of employing ND people being framed as a net negative to be mitigated, rather than a benefit to be harnessed.

Lumping all reasonable adjustments and all types of work into one pile is unhelpful.

I've multiple disabilities. I have had career guidance and support specifically designed for disabled people that did entire courses on reasonable adjustments and how to discuss/fight for them.

What was repeatedly drilled into us was that what is considered reasonable is context specific and involves a cost/benefit analysis and really what we want is a work role and environment that has the least need for adjustments possible - that just works best for everyone.

So that specialist software - how much does it cost, what equipment does it involve, how will the equipment work in the workplace? I've set up accessible settings for non-disabled co-workers computers before that cost 5 minutes of time because it's just that they didn't know it was there, but if I end up - as is possible - requiring large mobility equipment, I'll have to change roles, it simply cannot fit a role that requires a higher level of mobility - which is why I applied for the role, to help keep me fit with a condition that means I become deconditioned quicker than most.

Working less time - if the workplace is very time sensitive, it's probably not a good fit, so look at workplaces where that is available to everyone, where core hours are small with a lot of flexibility. A lot of grievances on this have more to do with management not hiring enough staff to handle people - both those with and without disabilities (where I work, it's mainly child-related or just having been negotiated to 4 days, not disability related) - having significant reduced hours/days rather than at the adjustment itself.

And yes, some people - with and without disabilities - will rely on the financial and of the government and/or others. Everyone relies on the support of others in the society we've built, even if they go unseen. That is not solely an out of work issue, that is not solely a disability issue. Reasonable adjustments, while largely fought for by disabled people, isn't solely a disabled issue either and framing it as such ignores the far wider ways people get support at work - the adjustments I've made for my colleagues wasn't disability related for them, it just made them and their work more comfortable and so able to do it better. I think that needs to be the focus, not this obsession that without extra exam time people are going to go starving.

Disabled people do tend to know their own limitations.

At least for me, it's only after I hurt myself enough times.

I have it on my occupational health report not to do any manual handling without specialised training - I have absolutely hurt myself moving furniture that should already have been at least a 2 person job because I overestimate my capacity. I learned to stop doing that after I badly strained several muscles.

It's why I'm also one of a few disabled people on my team who has had to be reminded to take breaks, when I'm technically allowed extra 'self-managed microbreaks', rather than working through because hyperfocus does lead to me forgetting eating is something I need to do.