Ukraine Invasion: Part 59

[MagicFox]

Well, it’s thread 59.

Thanks to all regular contributors, especially those doing the daily hard work. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦

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You're probably right, but if countries go down that road politicians need to cut out the BS phrases such as "but we punch above our weight" and start being honest (is that a pig I see floating past?).

Maybe running with "under a Russian influenced government benefits will be cut to sod all" might be a better idea, but of course wouldn't be a vote winner.

Spain NL etc spending a bit more wont much difference, their economies are small.
Germany however has just announced a 650 billion euro defence spend over the next 5 years.
For a country that not so long ago had sticks for guns, its a remarkable transformation.

For me, its the UK thats lagging, its a great pity defence spend was never a priority from 2022.

Of course Trump is getting it in the neck, he is the one that appears hell bent on handing Ukraine to Russia, the US has the might to give Ukraine what it needs, no one else has, capacity simply isn't there regardless of funds.

If Trump is going to block arms exports to Ukraine though, there's only so much that non-US arms suppliers can produce, regardless of who's funding them.

There is probably only so much Russia can produce (or produce that is up to spec) as well. And we know that some of the weaponry they have imported turned out to be lethal to the user.

Yes, Europe can and should be spending more on defence, I have no disagreement with this.

I will continue to "bash" Trump for his undermining of Ukraines efforts. The withdrawal of intelligence at key times, the refusal to allow weapons to be used when provided other partners because they were bought from America.

His feting of Putin and disgusting treatment of Zelensky, the uncertainty and unreliability due to his constant mind changes. Trump is a liability.

These are not monetary issues, these are things that undermine any chance of Ukrainian success, and has caused great harm already.

Trump is a fuckwit of the highest order in my opinion and I have yet to see, hear or read anything to contradiction this.

Agreed. Intelligence sharing doesn't really cost the US anything. Nor does selling weapons to European nations on the understanding that they will be forwarded onto Ukraine. In fact the latter boosts the economy of the US. Yet he wants to stop both.

Intelligence sharing doesn't really cost the US anything, it's true, but intelligence sharing with the USA may, given Trump's loose mouth, cost any one of the USA's allies dearly. It's unfortunate, but it's a fact, that we know he shared classified information with Russians on at least one previous occasion, and we've no idea what he shares with Putin on occasions like Helsinki when he made it clear he took Putin's word over that of his own intelligence community.

Hasn't the UK suspended sharing intelligence with the US out of concern that it may be used for illegal strikes against Venezuela?

Didn't Trump hoard a load of classified documents and refuse to return them?

It's a partial halt on sharing UK>US , reportedly related to intelligence related to vessels in parts of the Cariɓbean.

Republican Senator Mike Rounds said Secretary of State Marco Rubio, in a call to senators, confirmed the so-called 28-point “peace plan” was actually a Russian wishlist and is “not the administration’s position”. Nor is there any threat to cut off weapons or intelligence to Ukraine.

The plan was leaked by the Russians and no one in America’s historically inept administration knew what anyone else was doing so people started getting behind it because they thought it was official policy.

Putin totally played the US, knowing full well he was up against incompetents and idiots.

https://bsky.app/profile/chadbourn.bsky.social/post/3m6awbxtnns2g

I am not aware that the US is refusing to sell weapons to European countries for them to then donate to Ukraine.

Wasn't it threatened if Ukraine didn't agree by Thursday?

I don't disagree that Trump is a fuckwit and pretty much take this as a given.

But the reality is that this is a war in Europe and as such is a European nations problem yet European nations have historically and currently spend significantly less as a percent of GDP on defence compared to the US.

The US has been very clear that they see this as a conflict for Europe to solve with European military aid and have repeatedly said so. To June 2025 Europe has contributed $170 billion dollars of loans and free aid whereas the US has contributed $130 billion of free aid.

This is a defining moment for Europe- they either a) get their shit together and tell Zelensky that they will back him all the way or b) continue hang ring about brave Ukraine is, how evil Putin is but fail to take on full support for Ukraine because "well we'd rather spend the money on healthcare" - all the while blaming Trump.

Seriously when the US get involved in a conflict then they are criticised yet when they back away from involvement they are still criticised.

I genuinely think many posters are more interested in using the Ukrainian war as an opportunity to bash Trump
(god only knows there are so many other reasons to) than they are about preserving Ukrainian territorial integrity.

I didn't see this in the 28 point plan - not saying it's not true but I didn't see anything- do you have a link. I googled it but didn't find any references to the US refusing to sell weapons to Europe to pass on to Ukraine.

I did see that they were threatening to stop supplying military intelligence though.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/us-threatens-cut-intel-weapons-press-ukraine-into-peace-deal-sources-2025-11-21/

https://understandingwar.org/research/russia-ukraine/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-november-22-2025/

Key Takeaways

1. Russian officials and state media continue to set information conditions to reject the US-proposed 28-point peace plan, indicating that the Kremlin is actively conditioning the Russian people to not accept anything less than a full victory in Ukraine.
2. Ukrainian, American, and European delegations will meet on November 23 to discuss the US-proposed peace plan to end the war.
3. Ukrainian military officials continue to indicate that Ukrainian forces are pushing back Russian efforts to seize Kupyansk — in contrast to repeated Russian claims of seizing the town.
4. The situation in the Pokrovsk direction remains serious and dynamic as Russian forces continue attempts to seize Pokrovsk itself and encircle Ukrainian forces in Myrnohrad (east of Pokrovsk).
5. Authorities recently reported multiple drone sightings over air bases and airports in the Netherlands.
6. Ukrainian forces reportedly recently downed at least 19 Kinzhal ballistic missiles with electronic warfare (EW), likely in response to Ukraine’s Patriot air defense interceptor missile shortages and Russian Kinzhal modifications.
7. Russian forces are continuing to commit war crimes on the battlefield in Ukraine, particularly near Pokrovsk.
8. Ukrainian forces recently advanced near Siversk and in the Kostyantynivka-Druzhkivka tactical area. Russian forces recently advanced near Siversk.

i give to ukraine needs myself. Its good to give to others.

OK that's what I thought. If Ukraine doesn't agree to Trump's "peace deal" (or in my opinion effectively a surrender deal) then the US will stop providing military aid and military intelligence to Ukraine.

However there is nothing to prevent European nations buying military equipment from the US and donating it to Ukraine.

Interestingly the US recently pulled out of offering Patriot missile defence systems to a Danish military tender because the US said that they are running low on the systems themselves and had to prioritise US military needs first. Denmark instead went with a Franco Italian system on a deal worth £9 billion. But it's interesting how the French and Italians aren't running low on kit and can prioritise a lucrative deal with Denmark ahead of helping Ukraine.

@1dayatatime

However there is nothing to prevent European nations buying military equipment from the US and donating it to Ukraine.

I'm afraid on paper there very much is, a US set of regs called "International Traffic in Arms Regulations"...(ITAR).

That's one of the factors that slowed down the delivery of F-16s.

What a absolute mess going in to futher talks

America put forward a nearly carbon copy version of the Russian plan for Ukrainian conquest, admitted it and backtracked, then doubles down.

@1dayatatime your mindset is one of looking forward now that the US is out of the picture as a reliable partner, which is effectively what we need to do.

But it's hard not to gnash teeth when let's face it, the US promised to ensure Ukrainian independence. In practice years have passed, things have changed. But
when you say Seriously when the US get involved in a conflict then they are criticised yet when they back away from involvement they are still criticised.
I genuinely think many posters are more interested in using the Ukrainian war as an opportunity to bash Trump I can't go along with you. This is a war they knew they might have to fight because they signed the Budapest Memorandum. If you don't want the possibility of going to war, don't sign a document that means you might have to.

Betrayal is ugly whether it is Russian, British or American.

However, agreed, we have to look to the future now and work towards one where the US is a useful contact, not a friend.

@notimagain Eindhoven airport was closed last night due to several drone sightings. I simply can't believe (given the NL) that they were hobbyists.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/eindhoven-airport-closed-after-drone-sightings-defence-minister-says-2025-11-22/

We're going to have to wait and see what is going on..I'm not willing to automatically accept one theory above another ATM.

Maybe there is a whole cadre of Russian LGMs (little green men) running around europe flying drones for int gathering purposes, maybe locals have been paid to screw air traffic up... but one thing that has to be considered is that historically the authorities are very unwilling to back down on claims of drone sightings once traffic has been disrupted for precautionary reasons..

Kyiv Independent Telegram Highlights

⚡️Rubio tells senators 28-point peace deal is not a U.S. plan (https://kyivindependent.com/rewarding-russian-butchery-us-politicians-warn-trumps-peace-proposal-undermines-western-security/).
Speaking at the Halifax International Security Forum in Canada, U.S. senators critical of the proposed 28-point peace plan for Ukraine said that U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio told them that the current proposal does not amount to the actual U.S. plan.
Democratic Sen. Angus King said during a panel that Rubio told him that the plan was a "wish list of the Russians" and was "not the administration’s plan," with Republican Sen. Mike Rounds echoing the comments, adding that it appeared "more like it was written in Russian to begin with."

"This administration was not responsible for this release in its current form... They want to utilize it as a starting point," Rounds added.
⚡️ US threatening to cut intelligence, weapons (https://kyivindependent.com/us-warns-it-may-cut-intelligence-arms-to-pressure-ukraine-into-peace-talks-with-russia-reuters-reports/) to pressure Ukraine into new peace deal, Reuters reports.
Washington is pushing Kyiv to approve the framework of the deal by Nov. 27, coinciding with the U.S. Thanksgiving holiday.

⚡️Trump says Zelensky will 'have to approve (https://kyivindependent.com/trump-says-zelensky-will-have-to-approve-us-peace-plan-for-ukraine/)' US peace plan for Ukraine.
U.S. President Donald Trump said in the Oval Office on Nov. 21 that he believes there is "a way of getting peace."

⚡️Trump says new US peace plan not 'final offer' (https://kyivindependent.com/trump-says-new-us-peace-plan-not-final-offer-to-ukraine/) to Ukraine.
If President Volodymyr Zelensky refuses to accept the terms of the 28-point-plan, "then he can continue to fight his little heart out," Trump added.

⚡️Update: UK, France, Germany to join US-Ukraine talks (https://kyivindependent.com/u-s-ukraine-consultations-on-peace-proposal-to-begin-in-switzerland-in-coming-days-umerov-says/) in Switzerland.

⚡️ 'One of the most difficult moments (https://kyivindependent.com/one-of-the-most-difficult-moments-zelensky-addresses-ukraine-amid-controversial-us-peace-plan/)' — Zelensky addresses Ukraine amid controversial US peace plan.
"Ukraine may soon face an extremely difficult choice. Either the loss of dignity or the risk of losing a key partner," he said

⚡️ European leaders push back (https://kyivindependent.com/european-leaders-push-back-on-surprise-ukraine-peace-deal-affirm-support-for-kyiv/) on surprise Ukraine peace deal, affirm support for Kyiv.
European leaders pushed back on Nov. 21 against parts of a new and controversial U.S. plan for peace in Ukraine.

⚡️Ukraine downs Russian Mi-8 helicopter (https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine-downs-russian-mi-8-helicopter-with-deep-strike-drone-for-first-time-military-claims/) with deep strike drone for first time, military claims.
"We are changing the rules of the game: now we are hunting," Ukraine's Special Operations Forces said on Nov. 22. The Mi-8 was reportedly downed over Russia's Rostov Oblast.

⚡️ Russia likely captured over 15 villages (https://kyivindependent.com/russia-likely-captured-over-15-villages-in-zaporizhzhia-oblast-since-september-osint-group-says/) in Zaporizhzhia Oblast since September, OSINT group says.
The Russian advance in Zaporizhzhia Oblast comes as Russian troops also intensify their offensives in other hot spots of the war.

⚡️ 'Rewarding Russian butchery (https://kyivindependent.com/rewarding-russian-butchery-us-politicians-warn-trumps-peace-proposal-undermines-western-security/)' — US lawmakers rail against Trump's Ukraine peace deal.
"Rewarding Russian butchery would be disastrous to America’s interests," U.S. Senator Mitch McConnell said.

⚡️Ukraine war latest live: Ukraine says it holds positions in Pokrovsk as DeepState reports Russian advance over a key rail line
Ukrainian forces are holding defensive lines (https://kyivindependent.com/ukraine-war-latest-update-2025-11-21/) in the northern part of Pokrovsk and still control positions south of a key railway line, the 7th Rapid Response Corps of the Ukrainian Air Assault Forces said on Nov. 21. The unit said Russian troops are trying to cross the railway line but had been stopped by Ukrainian forces.
The claim comes as the Ukrainian mapping and analytical site DeepState reports that Russian forces have crossed the same railway line.

⚡️Netherlands opens fire on suspicious drones (https://kyivindependent.com/netherlands-opens-fire-on-suspicious-drones-near-air-base-housing-us-nuclear-weapons/) near air base housing US nuclear weapons.
The drones were spotted above the Volkel Air Base overnight, Dutch Defense Minister Ruben Brekelmans said on Nov. 22. The drones flew away after weapons were deployed and an investigation is underway.

⚡️ Lukashenko pardons 31 Ukrainian citizens (https://kyivindependent.com/lukashenko-pardons-31-ukrainian-citizens-held-in-belarus/) held in Belarus.
The decision was reportedly made following an agreement reached by Lukashenko with U.S. President Donald Trump, at Ukraine's request.

⚡️Pro-Ukrainian partisans set locomotive ablaze (https://kyivindependent.com/pro-ukrainian-partisans-set-ablaze-locomotive-in-russias-rostov-on-don-group-claims/) in Russia's Rostov-on-Don, group claims.
Members of the pro-Ukrainian partisan group Atesh sabotaged an electric locomotive allegedly used for transporting military cargo from the Russian city of Rostov-on-Don, Atesh claimed on Nov. 23

⚡️Ukraine's military reportedly strikes (https://kyivindependent.com/ukraines-military-strikes-power-plant-in-moscow-oblast/) power plant in Moscow Oblast.
Ukraine's military reportedly struck the Shatura Thermal Power Plant in Moscow Oblast overnight on Nov. 23, Russian Telegram media channels reported.

⚡️ NABU declined to comment when asked by the Kyiv Independent if Umerov was under investigation (https://kyivindependent.com/umerov-denies-approving-any-points-of-us-russia-peace-plan/), or if he had negotiated the terms of his return to Ukraine while in the U.S.

⚡️ US threatening to cut intelligence, weapons (https://kyivindependent.com/us-warns-it-may-cut-intelligence-arms-to-pressure-ukraine-into-peace-talks-with-russia-reuters-reports/) to pressure Ukraine into new peace deal, Reuters reports.
Washington is pushing Kyiv to approve the framework of the deal by Nov. 27, coinciding with the U.S. Thanksgiving holiday.

⚡️Drones reportedly strike (https://kyivindependent.com/drones-reportedly-strike-electric-substation-in-occupied-crimea/) electric substation in occupied Crimea.

Exclusive: Ukraine plans to effectively dismantle International Legion, sources say (https://kyivindependent.com/exclusive-ukraine-plans-to-effectively-dismantle-international-legion-sources-say/)
Ukraine plans to effectively dismantle one of the main structures that has brought foreign volunteers into its ranks, the International Legion under the Ground Forces, according to sources, leaving legionnaires worried they will lose the unit’s hard-won identity and be scattered into unfamiliar structures in a way they say could cost lives.
Founded in February 2022 at the request of President Volodymyr Zelensky, the Legion allowed foreigners to fight alongside the Ukrainian army, and has had both battlefield and political impact throughout the war.

⚡️Ex-justice minister questioned (https://kyivindependent.com/ex-justice-minister-questioned-in-ukraines-biggest-corruption-case-source-says/) in Ukraine's biggest corruption case, source says.
Former Justice Minister Herman Halushchenko was questioned by the National Anti-Corruption Bureau (NABU) on Nov. 21, a law enforcement source told the Kyiv Independent.

How war is shaping Ukraine’s next generation of engineers (
The Kyiv Independent’s Kollen Post visits the Kharkiv Aviation Institute and the National University of Radio Electronics to see how the full-scale invasion has transformed Ukrainian education — and how Ukraine’s next generation of engineers is turning to robotics, drones, aviation, and automation to meet wartime demands.

When superpowers break the rules (https://kyivindependent.com/will-smaller-powers-acquire-weapons-of-mass-destruction/)
“Manifest expansionist ambitions of the three most powerful countries in the world — China, the United States, and Russia — are undermining the current world order,” writes Andreas Umland, an analyst at the Stockholm Centre for Eastern European Studies (SCEEUS), in this op-ed.

⚡️Update: Search and rescue operations end in Ternopil with 33 dead (https://kyivindependent.com/rescue-efforts-continue-for-second-day-after-russian-strike-in-western-ternopil-22-remain-26-killed/), 6 still missing.

⚡️Polish 7-year-old (https://kyivindependent.com/rescue-efforts-continue-for-second-day-after-russian-strike-in-western-ternopil-22-remain-26-killed/) girl among victims of Russian strike on Ternopil, death toll rises to 31.

⚡️ At least 1 killed, 13 injured in Russian attacks (https://kyivindependent.com/at-least-1-killed-13-injured-in-russian-attacks-on-ukraine-over-past-day/) on Ukraine over past day.
Russian troops launched one ballistic missile and 104 Shahed-type drones at Ukraine overnight, the Air Force reported on Nov. 22.

Ragnar Bjartur Gudmundsson 🇺🇦‬ ‪@ragnarbjartur.bsky.social‬
· 1h
⚡️ WAR IN UKRAINE & RUSSIA — NOV 23, 2025
■ Notable drone activity with the 8th-highest drone losses reported to date
■ Russian MLRS and air strikes below average (eight 🇺🇦 strikes reported)
■ Fewer engagements reported, with decreased casualties
■ Double-digit aerial attacks (all drones); interception rate could be better, 12 locations hit
■ Rain in Kyiv and a light breeze across the battlefield

However there is nothing to prevent European nations buying military equipment from the US and donating it to Ukraine.

If it was as easy as that then there wouldn't have been half of the dithering about allowing Ukraine to use long-range weapons because they used US-designed systems.

Certainly the view of opinion writers in both the Times and the Telegraph is that this will affect European-funded, US-made weapons; not just US-funded weapons.