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Ukraine Invasion: Part 59

1000 replies

MagicFox · 17/10/2025 22:11

Well, it’s thread 59.

Thanks to all regular contributors, especially those doing the daily hard work. Slava Ukraini 🇺🇦

Agreed thread guidance:

A. The agreed purpose of the thread is for the sharing of information and commentary on current events

B. If you post a link please tell us where it leads/give a precis of the content

C. Discussion and debate is welcome, but please keep it respectful

D. Please keep on topic

OP posts:
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441
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 23/11/2025 12:02

@DdraigGoch @notimagain mentioned this above - there certainly is something preventing European nations buying military equipment from the US and donating it to Ukraine:

notimagain · Today 10:35

However there is nothing to prevent European nations buying military equipment from the US and donating it to Ukraine.
I'm afraid on paper there very much is, a US set of regs called "International Traffic in Arms Regulations"...(ITAR).
That's one of the factors that slowed down the delivery of F-16s.

DdraigGoch · 23/11/2025 12:06

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar But it's hard not to gnash teeth when let's face it, the US promised to ensure Ukrainian independence. In practice years have passed, things have changed.

Worth noting that even 75 years after the signing of the Treaty of London, the UK didn't forget its obligation to defend Belgium's neutrality.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 23/11/2025 12:08

UNITED24 Media Telegram Highlights

We are clear that borders should not be changed by force. We are also concerned about the proposed limitations on Ukraine’s armed forces, which would make Ukraine vulnerable to future attacks. We reiterate that the implementation of elements relevant to the European Union and NATO will require the agreement of the EU and NATO members, respectively, a joint statement by the leaders of Europe, Japan, and Canada on the European Council website reads.
“We welcome the continued efforts of the United States to bring peace to Ukraine.
The initial draft of the 28-point plan contains important elements that will be necessary for a just and lasting peace.
We therefore believe that this draft is a framework that will require further work.
We stand ready to contribute to ensuring a sustainable peace in the future.
We take this opportunity to underline the determination of our continued support for Ukraine.
We will continue to coordinate closely with Ukraine and the United States in the coming days.”
This statement was adopted by:
🇪🇺 President of the European Council António Costa
🇪🇺 President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen
🇨🇦 Prime Minister of Canada Mark Carney
🇫🇮 President of Finland Alexander Stubb
🇫🇷 President of France Emmanuel Macron
🇩🇪 Chancellor of Germany Friedrich Merz
🇮🇪 Prime Minister Michal Martin
🇮🇹 Prime Minister of Italy Giorgia Meloni
🇯🇵 Prime Minister of Japan Sanae Takaichi
🇳🇱 Prime Minister of the Netherlands Dick Schoof
🇳🇴 Prime Minister of Norway Jonas Gahr Støre
🇪🇸 Prime Minister of Spain Pedro Sánchez
🇬🇧 Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Keir Starmer

🇵🇱 Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk later joined the statement.

“This is one of the most difficult moments in our history”: President Zelenskyy recorded a video address to the people of Ukraine.
“The pressure on Ukraine is currently one of the most severe. Ukraine could now face a very difficult choice: either the loss of dignity or the risk of losing a key partner. Either the difficult 28 points, or an extremely difficult winter — the most difficult one — and further risks. Life without freedom, dignity, and justice, and for us to trust someone who has already attacked twice,” the president said.
However, he noted that he had already given his answer during his inauguration, when he pledged “to defend Ukraine’s sovereignty and independence with all my actions, to uphold the rights and freedoms of citizens, and to observe the Constitution and laws of Ukraine.”

🇳🇴 Norwegian Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre said that several European countries are discussing the “peace plan” prepared by the United States.

🇮🇹🇩🇪 Meloni and Merz discussed the US peace plan for Ukraine during a phone call.

“I have just discussed the peace plan for Ukraine with President Trump in a good and confidential telephone conversation. We agreed on the next steps at the level of advisors. I will now inform my European partners,” said German Chancellor Friedrich Merz.

“For a peace plan to be fair, it must not punish the victim or ignore the crimes committed. And for it to be long-lasting, it must guarantee Ukraine’s sovereignty, its ability to independently determine its own course, and a dignified future,” said Czech President Petr Pavel.

🤡 Putin commented on the American peace plan for the first time. [,,,,]He claims that the plan “can become the basis” for a final settlement. According to him, the text was not discussed in detail with Washington, and “the US leadership failed to reach an agreement with the Ukrainian side.”
Putin also confirmed Russia’s readiness to continue military operations and repeated theses about the “successful situation at the front.”

A senior member of Russia’s State Duma has dismissed the 28-point peace plan recently proposed by the United States to end the war in Ukraine, describing it as a “provocation” and contrary to Russian interests.
According to The Moscow Times, First Deputy Chairman of the State Duma Defense Committee Alexei Zhuravlyov said that only a full military victory and Ukrainian capitulation could bring a definitive end to the war.
Zhuravlyov argued that Washington’s objective was to preserve Ukraine as a permanent strategic threat to Russia.

Trump’s 28-Point Peace Plan Would Not Bring Peace to Ukraine. Here’s Why — (united24media.com/latest-news/trumps-28-point-peace-plan-would-not-bring-peace-to-ukraine-heres-why-13679) Read full via link
US President Donald Trump has presented a 28-point peace proposal for Ukraine, aiming to secure Kyiv’s agreement by Thanksgiving, according to The Wall Street Journal on November 21. A plan that has already faced critical assessments from multiple analysts, including WSJ itself.

Poland to Launch Production of Ukrainian Seawolf Surface Drones — Defence24
Norwegian defense company Kongsberg is investing up to PLN 1 billion to establish local production.
Seawolf is one of Ukraine’s key naval drones, developed using real combat experience. It has a range of over 1,600 km and can carry up to 450 kg of payload. There is also a reinforced version capable of carrying AIM-9 missiles and a machine gun module.
Launching production in Poland will allow the EU to scale Ukrainian technologies and enable joint procurement.

Ukraine’s Famed Flamingo Missile Maker Finally Speaks Out as Scrutiny Mounts. Here’s What We Know (united24media.com/war-in-ukraine/ukraines-famed-flamingo-missile-maker-finally-speaks-out-as-scrutiny-mounts-heres-what-we-know-13678)
At the height of its popularity, one of Ukraine’s fastest-growing and most secretive weapons manufacturers—Fire Point, known for successful long-range strikes, including the FP-1 drone and the pink-painted Flamingo missile—decides to set the record straight amid controversy and a growing rumor mill.

Despite years of bold claims from Moscow about next-generation weaponry, many of Russia’s most publicized military projects have failed to meet expectations. From advanced tanks kept away from the front to warships sunk by drones, these high-profile systems reveal the widening gap between Russian military propaganda and battlefield performance.
united24media.com/war-in-ukraine/five-russian-superweapons-that-became-military-tech-disasters-13633

🕯 November 22 [yesterday] — Day of Remembrance of the Victims of the Holodomors
Ukraine bows its head to the millions of innocents whose lives were taken by the Holodomor of 1932–1933 and the mass artificial famines of 1921–1923 and 1946–1947.
▫️ Ukrainians endured three Holodomors in the 20th century: 1921–1923, 1932–1933, and 1946–1947. The most extensive was the 1932–33 Holodomor, planned and carried out by the Stalinist regime.
▫️ Terror through famine was a deliberate policy of the Kremlin. The strategy of exterminating Ukrainians was implemented intentionally starting in 1928 and lasted for 22 months in Ukraine.
▫️ The Holodomor claimed at least 4 million lives, according to the UINR. Researchers believe the real toll is significantly higher.
▫️ The truth about the Holodomor was banned for decades. Under Soviet rule, even mentioning the tragedy was punishable. Only in the late 1980s did the first open studies appear.
▫️ The world recognizes the Holodomor as genocide.
The 1932–33 Holodomor has been officially recognized as genocide of the Ukrainian people by 29 countries, as well as PACE, the European Parliament, and the Baltic Assembly.

🤬 The invaders shot five Ukrainian prisoners of war, DeepState reports.

❗️In Dnipro, 15 people have already been injured following an enemy attack.

🕯 A 7-year-old Polish girl, Amelia, and her mother died in a Russian strike on a house in Ternopil.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
notimagain · 23/11/2025 12:14

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 23/11/2025 12:02

@DdraigGoch @notimagain mentioned this above - there certainly is something preventing European nations buying military equipment from the US and donating it to Ukraine:

notimagain · Today 10:35

However there is nothing to prevent European nations buying military equipment from the US and donating it to Ukraine.
I'm afraid on paper there very much is, a US set of regs called "International Traffic in Arms Regulations"...(ITAR).
That's one of the factors that slowed down the delivery of F-16s.

Yep, to amplify if you buy US kit or kit with a significant number/amount of US components the US state department, through ITAR, can veto you then transferring it to another party, right through to the end of the equipment's life...That can apply to anything, from rifles up to aircraft....

Now it may be tempting to say "oh sod that, export to Ukraine anyway" but the fear is the US might respond by pulling the plug on, for example product support for your own Patriots or F-35s....

This to some degree explains why Dassault and SAAB are picking up big orders from various nations, not just Ukraine...

There are certainly reports that some military equipment providers in the States are getting hacked off at losing out on export orders due to Europeans and others getting twitchey about ITAR and going to other suppliers.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 23/11/2025 12:17

Kyiv Post Telegram Highlights

All major thermal and hydroelectric power plants in Ukraine have been damaged — Ministry of Energy

The Trump administration will formally brief European allies on its Ukraine peace framework for the first time this Sunday, Kyiv Post has learned from diplomatic sources, (www.kyivpost.com/post/64751) signaling a new, high-stakes phase in Washington’s push to end the war.

European officials have slammed a key part of a draft peace plan prepared by Trump’s envoy, Witkoff, together with Russian representative Dmitriev.
The proposal calls for using frozen Russian assets to rebuild Ukraine after a ceasefire (www.kyivpost.com/post/64766)with Washington taking 50% of the profits from the reconstruction projects.

Speaking to Kyiv Post, (www.kyivpost.com/post/64792) diplomats, Russia strategists warn Washington’s clashing messages on Ukraine peace mark a “chaotic rupture” that risks strengthening Moscow’s hand.

Russia has received a 28-point plan from the U.S. regarding Ukraine, Putin stated.
He noted that the 28-point plan on Ukraine could serve as a basis for a final peaceful settlement, but the text is not being discussed in detail with Russia.
Other key statements by Putin:
– Trump’s peace plan for resolving the situation in Ukraine was discussed before the meeting in Alaska;
– The U.S. asked the Russian side to show flexibility in resolving the Ukraine issue;
– Putin called Trump’s 28-point plan “modernized” after the Alaska talks;
– All of Russia’s partners expressed support for possible agreements ahead of the Alaska summit;
– The U.S. has so far failed to secure Ukraine’s consent to the peace plan.

Zelensky warned that the coming week would be difficult, (www.kyivpost.com/post/64723) with expected political and informational pressure aimed at “weakening and dividing Ukrainians.”

No decisions from Kyiv on 28-point peace plan yet (www.kyivpost.com/post/64698) — the secretary of Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council (NSDC) Umerov rejected media reports that Kyiv has suggested amendments to the US plan, saying Kyiv is now studying the draft.

The EU and President Volodymyr Zelenskyy rejected key components of the United States’ plan — Bloomberg
Friedrich Merz, Emmanuel Macron and Keir Starmer agreed that the strength of the Ukrainian armed forces cannot be reduced.

🎙️New episode of OFF THE RECORD is now live.
Volodymyr Kadygrob, publisher of Living the War, joins 🇨🇦 Natalka Cmoc to talk about documenting Ukraine’s invisible front — stories of civilians, artists, and resilience under occupation.
Watch now: www.kyivpost.com/videos/64726

Sensitive content
Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 23/11/2025 12:26

Live: Ukraine Telegram Highlights

European partners have prepared their own counter-proposal to Trump’s “peace plan,” reports The Washington Post, citing a document obtained by journalists.
According to the European proposal:
🔴No limits will be placed on Ukraine’s Armed Forces. (Trump’s plan requires Ukraine to cut its army in half and give up long-range missiles.)
🔴Ukraine would regain control of the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant and the Kakhovka dam, as well as have “unrestricted passage” along the Dnipro River and control over the Kinburn Spit.
🔴Other territorial issues would be settled only after a ceasefire is reached.
European officials describe the proposal as a “foundation that will require further work.” Some representatives from France, Germany and the United Kingdom intend to participate in today’s negotiations in Geneva between Ukraine and the United States.
Reuters, citing a source, reports that Trump’s special envoy Steve Witkoff and U.S. Secretary of State Mark Rubio have already arrived in Geneva. The Ukrainian delegation will be led by Presidential Office head Andriy Yermak.

President Zelensky spent nearly an hour speaking with U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance and U.S. Secretary of the Army Dan Driscoll about the American peace plan.

❗️According to AFP’s calculation based on data from the Institute for the Study of War (ISW), implementing the U.S. “peace plan” in its current form could result in Russia receiving, without fighting, a territory roughly the size of Luxembourg.

Ukrainian intelligence operatives have destroyed a Russian Ka-27 helicopter in occupied Crimea.
The ship-based multipurpose helicopter, valued at 1.5 million dollars, was burned by fighters of the HUR special unit “Prymary”.
Four Russian air-defense systems were also hit:
◾️the Lira-A10 airfield radar complex;
◾️the 55Zh6U “Nebo-U” radar;
◾️the “Nebo-SV” radar in a dome structure;
◾️the P-18 “Terek” radar.

Russia attacked Ukraine again overnight with ballistic missiles and 104 drones.
Air defenses destroyed 89 Russian drones. Thirteen UAVs and one Iskander-M ballistic missile hit sixteen locations. Here is what is known so far:
🔴Odesa region. Two people were injured. Administrative buildings and trucks were damaged. The international checkpoint Orlivka on the border with Romania suspended operations.
🔴Dnipropetrovsk region. Two men were injured in the Lozova community.
🔴Zaporizhzhia region. Russia hit Preobrazhenka with an FPV drone. A 49-year-old woman was injured and her home was damaged.
🔴Ternopil. Rescuers found the body of another woman under the rubble of the building struck on November 19. As of this morning, the death toll in Ternopil has risen to thirty-two, including six children. Seven residents remain missing.

🇺🇸 J.D. Vance has outlined three requirements that any peace plan between Ukraine and Russia must meet.
The U.S. vice president says a peace plan must:
🔴end the killing while preserving Ukraine’s sovereignty
🔴be acceptable to both Russia and Ukraine
🔴maximize the chances that the war will not start again
Vance argues that those who criticize President Donald Trump’s “peace plan” either misunderstand it or “live in a world of illusions.”
The U.S. plan to end the war contains twenty-eight points. Despite including security guarantees, it requires major concessions from Ukraine, including reducing the size of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, recognizing Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk as de facto Russian, and abandoning plans to join NATO.

🇺🇸 Trump has appointed Dan Driscoll as special envoy for advancing the U.S. peace plan for Ukraine, The Guardian reports, citing sources.
Driscoll will be the one overseeing the execution of the plan. He is the U.S. Secretary of the Army and a longtime friend and former classmate of U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance.
At the end of next week, a delegation of Pentagon generals, together with Driscoll, will travel to Moscow to discuss the details of Trump’s plan.
Driscoll arrived in Kyiv on November 20 and held talks with President Volodymyr Zelensky.

❗️Ukraine is beginning consultations with the United States on a potential peace agreement, National Security and Defense Council Secretary Rustem Umerov announced. [...]
The delegation will be led by Presidential Chief of Staff Andrii Yermak. Its members include:
🔴Rustem Umerov and his deputy Yevhenii Ostrianskyi
🔴 HUR chief Kyrylo Budanov
🔴Chief of the General Staff Andrii Hnatov
🔴Foreign Intelligence Service head Oleh Ivashchenko
🔴First Deputy Foreign Minister Serhii Kyslytsia
🔴SBU deputy head Oleksandr Poklad
🔴Yermak’s adviser Oleksandr Bevz

▪️President Zelensky and European partners have rejected the key points of the U.S. “peace plan.” Trump has already set a preliminary deadline for its approval: November 27.

🇺🇸🇺🇦 Nearly 200,000 Ukrainians in the United States may lose their legal status due to Trump’s immigration decisions.
The humanitarian program Uniting for Ukraine, launched by Joe Biden in April 2022, allowed nearly 260,000 Ukrainians to enter the U.S. After Trump returned to power, the processing of renewal applications was initially halted and then reinstated in May following a court order.
But in six months, U.S. authorities have processed only 1,900 renewal requests — a tiny fraction of those whose status is expiring. At the same time, Trump raised the individual application fee from $1,325 to $2,325.
Ukrainians are being arrested on construction sites, while delivering food, driving taxis or trucks, and during large immigration raids in Chicago and around Cleveland.
Some Ukrainians are now self-deporting to avoid being placed in immigration detention or sent to Latin American or African countries, as has happened to nationals of other states under current White House policy.

In Ternopil a man waited for three days by the ruins of his building, hoping for his wife and children.
His wife, his one-and-a-half-year-old son, and his six-year-old daughter were killed.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
DdraigGoch · 23/11/2025 13:27

If even Nigel Farage (who has been cosying up to Trump and has appeared on Russia Today in the past) regards the Witkoff-Dmitriev Pact as unacceptable, it must be bad.
x.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1991954130450186495

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 23/11/2025 13:45

and one of the replies on that thread says that Trump has a proven record of ending wars. sigh

blueshoes · 23/11/2025 14:35

⚡️Trump says new US peace plan not 'final offer' (https://kyivindependent.com/trump-says-new-us-peace-plan-not-final-offer-to-ukraine/) to Ukraine.
If President Volodymyr Zelensky refuses to accept the terms of the 28-point-plan, "then he can continue to fight his little heart out," Trump added.

Did Trump really say "continue to fight his little heart out" to a man who hasn't slept properly since February 2022 and is fighting an existential battle with one hand tied behind his back for freedom and sovereignty of his nation after an unprovoked invasion from a far bigger nation?

Southernecho · 23/11/2025 14:38

1dayatatime · 23/11/2025 00:39

I don't disagree that Trump is a fuckwit and pretty much take this as a given.

But the reality is that this is a war in Europe and as such is a European nations problem yet European nations have historically and currently spend significantly less as a percent of GDP on defence compared to the US.

The US has been very clear that they see this as a conflict for Europe to solve with European military aid and have repeatedly said so. To June 2025 Europe has contributed $170 billion dollars of loans and free aid whereas the US has contributed $130 billion of free aid.

This is a defining moment for Europe- they either a) get their shit together and tell Zelensky that they will back him all the way or b) continue hang ring about brave Ukraine is, how evil Putin is but fail to take on full support for Ukraine because "well we'd rather spend the money on healthcare" - all the while blaming Trump.

Seriously when the US get involved in a conflict then they are criticised yet when they back away from involvement they are still criticised.

I genuinely think many posters are more interested in using the Ukrainian war as an opportunity to bash Trump
(god only knows there are so many other reasons to) than they are about preserving Ukrainian territorial integrity.

This is a bit wrong.

Ukraine/Europe needs the USA, they have the weapons and the means to produce more.
Europe does not, not the stockpiles, hasn't the factories, the skills, even the weapons.

It'll take time to build up, yes they are going too slow but even if they went flat out, if the US stops supply, Ukraine loses.

& what exactly has happened to NATO? You seem to be saying that if Russia went further, well, thats a Euro problem, nothing to do with the USA.

Trump is likely as not a Russian stooge or being blackmailed, he has taken sides with Russia, against Europe, hopefully the full extent of his treachery will come out whilst he is still alive.

DdraigGoch · 23/11/2025 16:45

blueshoes · 23/11/2025 14:35

⚡️Trump says new US peace plan not 'final offer' (https://kyivindependent.com/trump-says-new-us-peace-plan-not-final-offer-to-ukraine/) to Ukraine.
If President Volodymyr Zelensky refuses to accept the terms of the 28-point-plan, "then he can continue to fight his little heart out," Trump added.

Did Trump really say "continue to fight his little heart out" to a man who hasn't slept properly since February 2022 and is fighting an existential battle with one hand tied behind his back for freedom and sovereignty of his nation after an unprovoked invasion from a far bigger nation?

Donald J. "Bone Spurs" Trump?

Mb76 · 23/11/2025 17:11

Trump
“Ukraine has zero gratitude” 😑

1dayatatime · 23/11/2025 17:50

Southernecho · 23/11/2025 14:38

This is a bit wrong.

Ukraine/Europe needs the USA, they have the weapons and the means to produce more.
Europe does not, not the stockpiles, hasn't the factories, the skills, even the weapons.

It'll take time to build up, yes they are going too slow but even if they went flat out, if the US stops supply, Ukraine loses.

& what exactly has happened to NATO? You seem to be saying that if Russia went further, well, thats a Euro problem, nothing to do with the USA.

Trump is likely as not a Russian stooge or being blackmailed, he has taken sides with Russia, against Europe, hopefully the full extent of his treachery will come out whilst he is still alive.

Edited

As part of the "peace plan "
the US said that it would negotiate between NATO and Russia.

This is a fundamental shift because it implies that the US is not a member of NATO (when it actually is). The reality is that the US now sees NATO as a European club and the European nations need to get on board with this.

Absolutely Europe and Ukraine needs the US because since the end of the Cold War the US was spending around 5% to 6% of GDP on defence whereas Europe was on average spending less than 2% on defence and still is.

To be blunt why should US taxpayers pick up the bill to support Ukraine which is way more important to the security of Europe than it is for the security of the US (especially when Putin wants to move beyond Ukraine) when European tax payers aren't willing to do and still aren't willing to do so or aren't willing to see cuts in welfare or health care to fund it.

I mean the minimum spend on defence under NATO is 2% but Spain has been only spending around 1.3% for years which is taking the piss and Germany historically hasn't been much better.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 23/11/2025 18:44

1dayatatime
To be blunt why should US taxpayers pick up the bill to support Ukraine which is way more important to the security of Europe than it is for the security of the US

Perhaps for the same reason the US supported Europe against both Hitler and Stalin?

dibly · 23/11/2025 19:03

To be blunt, why did NATO rally around the US after 911 based on false assumptions of WMD? Probably because they took their NATO membership seriously and felt it was the right, if politically difficult, things to do. Said it before but this had a huge impact on our economy, and fellow European economies, and many lives were lost in support of the US. On top of needing to repay the US for loans from WW2, and then to have claims that the US won the war.

Trump clearly isn’t honourable, which is a bitter blow to Europe, especially when many Europeans are also facing unknown drones, or Russian spy boats shining lasers at UK pilots.

But what I think is almost worse is his inconsistency, and sheer meanness - why does he feel the need to wang on about this being Biden’s war that wouldn’t have happened if the US and Ukraine had had stronger leaders. I mean, WTF? And his insistence that Ukraine isn’t t thankful enough. It’s like watching a coercive control, domestic abuse, victim bashing scene play out.

All of us here are heavily invested in a Ukraine victory, we’ve donated, some of us have given our homes for Ukranians to stay, we’ve lobbied elected reps extensively and we’ve even voted for the most Ukraine friendly policies and politicians. So I’m getting really sick of the Europe bashing, when we’ve given, and continue to give, far more than the comparatively wealthy US, who have clear skin in the game after the Budapest Memorandum.

DdraigGoch · 23/11/2025 23:11

Absolutely Europe and Ukraine needs the US because since the end of the Cold War the US was spending around 5% to 6% of GDP on defence whereas Europe was on average spending less than 2% on defence and still is.

How much less could the US have spend over that time if Gore had won in 2000 and the Iraq war had never happened? The US defence budget isn't exclusively used for security in Europe (a function that was largely diminished after the fall of the Berlin Wall), a massive chunk went on pointless entanglements.

1dayatatime · 24/11/2025 00:06

Unfortunately how I see the end game is that Ukraine gets thrown under a bus and are forced to hand over territory because the US taxpayers aren't prepared to fund a European war that European tax payers also aren't willing to fund.

After Ukraine gets sacrificed the European nations lament about how terrible it is for Ukraine and place the blame solely on the US, conveniently omitting that they have and continue to fail to meet the minimum 2% of gdp spending on defence under NATO.

1dayatatime · 24/11/2025 00:21

dibly · 23/11/2025 19:03

To be blunt, why did NATO rally around the US after 911 based on false assumptions of WMD? Probably because they took their NATO membership seriously and felt it was the right, if politically difficult, things to do. Said it before but this had a huge impact on our economy, and fellow European economies, and many lives were lost in support of the US. On top of needing to repay the US for loans from WW2, and then to have claims that the US won the war.

Trump clearly isn’t honourable, which is a bitter blow to Europe, especially when many Europeans are also facing unknown drones, or Russian spy boats shining lasers at UK pilots.

But what I think is almost worse is his inconsistency, and sheer meanness - why does he feel the need to wang on about this being Biden’s war that wouldn’t have happened if the US and Ukraine had had stronger leaders. I mean, WTF? And his insistence that Ukraine isn’t t thankful enough. It’s like watching a coercive control, domestic abuse, victim bashing scene play out.

All of us here are heavily invested in a Ukraine victory, we’ve donated, some of us have given our homes for Ukranians to stay, we’ve lobbied elected reps extensively and we’ve even voted for the most Ukraine friendly policies and politicians. So I’m getting really sick of the Europe bashing, when we’ve given, and continue to give, far more than the comparatively wealthy US, who have clear skin in the game after the Budapest Memorandum.

I think rallying around the US on Iraq is pushing it somewhat.

The Iraq war 2003 to 2011 saw :
450k US troops
45k UK troops
2k Australian troops
196 Polish troops

4500 US troops killed , 33k wounded
179 UK troops killed, 315 wounded.

Troop contributions from Germany, Italy, Canada, Spain - in fact the rest of NATO was zero. But I'm sure they made some great supporting statements- all the while avoiding the loss of life of their troops and not have the heart breaking scenes of coffins driving through Wotton Bassett.

DdraigGoch · 24/11/2025 01:36

1dayatatime · 24/11/2025 00:06

Unfortunately how I see the end game is that Ukraine gets thrown under a bus and are forced to hand over territory because the US taxpayers aren't prepared to fund a European war that European tax payers also aren't willing to fund.

After Ukraine gets sacrificed the European nations lament about how terrible it is for Ukraine and place the blame solely on the US, conveniently omitting that they have and continue to fail to meet the minimum 2% of gdp spending on defence under NATO.

It's not just about funding though, is it? European countries have been putting their hands into their pockets, and many have dug deeper than the US. They don't however have the manufacturing capacity - the US has an opportunity to make some money out of the war (following an old tradition) but the administration may quash that. European nations also don't have the intel reach - the cost to the US of sharing this is marginal but Krasnov is threatening to cut that off anyway.

This isn't about Americans being war-weary, or wanting to cut costs. This is about an administration who appear to be going all-out to support Russia for their own ends.

DdraigGoch · 24/11/2025 01:37

1dayatatime · 24/11/2025 00:21

I think rallying around the US on Iraq is pushing it somewhat.

The Iraq war 2003 to 2011 saw :
450k US troops
45k UK troops
2k Australian troops
196 Polish troops

4500 US troops killed , 33k wounded
179 UK troops killed, 315 wounded.

Troop contributions from Germany, Italy, Canada, Spain - in fact the rest of NATO was zero. But I'm sure they made some great supporting statements- all the while avoiding the loss of life of their troops and not have the heart breaking scenes of coffins driving through Wotton Bassett.

Afghanistan would be a better reference because it was actually related to 9/11. Why were Bush/Blair so keen on invading Iraq anyway?

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 24/11/2025 08:49

Kyiv Independent:

⚡️'Outrage against human decency' – European MPs caution Trump against appeasing Russia in new open letter.

The 47 signatories include parliamentarians from countries ranging from Ireland to North Macedonia.

"Any appeasement of Russia as the aggressor, any attempts at putting pressure on Ukraine as the victim of this aggression, is morally reprehensible and an outrage against human decency. To bow before Russia is to abandon shared values and plunge the free world into anarchy and chaos," the letter reads.

"Strong American leadership is the only hope. A cowed America can never be great again; acowed America can never be first."

⚡️Ukrainian army on 'search and destroy' missions to clear Russians from central Pokrovsk.

According to the Airborne Assault Forces, Ukraine has killed 388 Russian soldiers in the city and wounded another 87 since the beginning of November.

⚡️Ukraine says US considers Kyiv’s priorities amid peace talks in Geneva as Trump rants about Ukraine, Europe.

A Ukrainian delegation in Geneva, Switzerland, is working on a "workable solution" for ending Russia's war, President Volodymyr Zelensky said in a Telegram post on Nov. 23.

Rustem Umerov, secretary of Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council, wrote on Facebook that the current version of the agreement, though not final, already takes Ukraine's priorities into account.

⚡️Secretive US-Russia peace negotiations on Ukraine left out key White House officials, Bloomberg reports.

Secretive talks between the U.S. and Russia left out key White House officials and have been ongoing for weeks, Bloomberg reported on Nov. 23.

⚡️Russian military reportedly executes 5 Ukrainian POWs.

Five Ukrainian prisoners of war (POWs) were executed by Russian soldiers, Ukrainian mapping and analytical organization DeepState reported on Nov. 22.

⚡️Trump 'quite pleased' with Ukraine peace talks as Europe reportedly issues counterproposal to Russia.

U.S. President Donald Trump is "quite pleased" with the progress made at ongoing peace talks in Geneva, Switzerland, Secretary of State Marco Rubio said on Nov. 23, as Europe reportedly issued a counterproposal to a U.S.-backed peace plan that heavily favored Russia.

Putin’s plan for Ukrainian surrender does not serve American national interests

“Endorsing this plan embarrassingly underscores that all of Trump’s courtship of Putin, punctuated by rolling out the red carpet for the Russian imperialist dictator in Alaska in August, has yielded not a single substantive concession from Russia,” writes Michael McFaul, a professor of political science at Stanford University, in this op-ed.

🔹 These are the indicative estimates of Russia’s combat losses as of Nov. 24, according to the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
DesdamonasHandkerchief · 24/11/2025 09:24

Live:Ukraine

❗️❗️Talks between Ukraine, the US, the EU and the UK are continuing in Geneva over the proposed peace plan. Here are the key updates so far.

After the first meetings, President Volodymyr Zelensky said the US may incorporate elements of Ukraine’s own vision of a peace plan into its proposal. He did not specify which points are being considered.

Bloomberg, citing sources, revealed the main elements of the EU’s alternative plan. The core demand is US security guarantees modelled on NATO’s Article 5, meaning collective defence in the event of a new Russian attack.

Other points include:

🔴 negotiations with Russia on territorial issues only after a ceasefire along the current line of contact;

🔴 no transfer of non-occupied eastern Ukrainian territory to Russia

🔴 frozen Russian assets to be used for Ukraine’s reconstruction and compensation

🔴 assets remain frozen if Russia refuses to pay reparations

🔴 sanctions on Russia to be lifted gradually and only if Moscow complies with the agreement

The Washington Post adds that under the European proposal Ukraine would regain control of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant and the Kakhovka dam, as well as secure “unhindered passage” along the Dnipro River and control over the Kinburn Spit.

Europe also opposes limiting Ukraine’s armed forces to 600,000 personnel. Kyiv insists on maintaining 800,000 troops in peacetime.

🔹 Donald Trump said that Ukraine “has not expressed gratitude” to the United States for its peace efforts, and that Europe continues to buy Russian oil. (Photo)

🔸 Ukrainian intelligence chief told War Zone that the Russian general responsible for blowing up the Kakhovka Dam is now leading a military training mission in Venezuela.

According to the report, this refers to Oleg Makarievich, the former commander of Russia’s “Dnipro” military grouping, who now heads a contingent of 120 Russian troops in Caracas and trains Venezuelan servicemen.

The intelligence chief added that Russia’s troop rotations in Venezuela have been ongoing for many years and are not a response to the growing U.S. military presence in the Caribbean. However, it appears that Makarievich has been ordered to extend his stay.

Russian forces are also assessing the combat capabilities of the Venezuelan Armed Forces, including armored vehicles, aircraft, artillery, and drones.

🔹 The Security Service of Ukraine destroyed a tower of an industrial facility in Pokrovsk that housed machine-gun crews, snipers, and FPV-drone operators.

Another target was a warehouse storing FPV drones and Zala and Gerbera UAVs located in the Russian-occupied part of Donetsk region.

The strikes were carried out using FP-2 drones equipped with 105-kilogram warheads.

🔸 The first stage of peace talks in Geneva has ended. Here’s what is known.

Head of the Presidential Office Andriy Yermak said there had been “very good progress” in negotiations with the Americans and that a second round would begin soon, this time with European partners at the table.

Secretary of the National Security and Defence Council Rustem Umerov said the current version of the peace plan already reflects most of Ukraine’s key priorities, though he did not specify which ones.

US Secretary of State Marco Rubio also confirmed changes to the plan. He called the meetings “the most productive and most significant” in the peace process so far. He added, however, that any plan must still be approved by Donald Trump, while Russia will also need to express its position.

Photo: Andriy Yermak / Telegram

❗️🇪🇺The EU’s peace plan contains no limits on Ukraine’s armed forces and keeps the door to NATO membership open. The Telegraph has published the full document.

The 24-point plan overlaps with parts of the US proposal but differs on several key issues:

🔴 Ukraine faces no restrictions on its armed forces or defence industry. This also applies to international cooperation.

🔴 Ukraine’s path to NATO membership depends solely on consensus within the Alliance.

🔴 Security guarantees will follow a model similar to NATO’s Article 5. A coalition of European and non-European states willing to participate will act as guarantors. Ukraine can independently decide whether to host foreign troops or weapons.

🔴 Ukraine and Russia must fully cease fire on land, at sea and in the air. Territorial issues will be negotiated only after the ceasefire.

🔴 Talks on territory will begin from the current line of contact. Ukraine regains control of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant (with US involvement), the Kakhovka dam, free navigation on the Dnipro River and the Kinburn Spit.

🔴 Sanctions imposed on Russia since 2014 will be gradually and partially eased only after Ukraine and Russia achieve a durable peace. They will be reactivated if Russia violates the agreement.

🔹 Two people were killed in Russia’s shelling of Marhanets in the Dnipropetrovsk region, and five more were injured.

Russian forces also struck Sloviansk in the Donetsk region, injuring five people. The city was hit with air-dropped bombs, one of which landed on the grounds of an apartment building.

🔸 Four people were killed and at least 13 injured in a drone strike on Kharkiv.

Among the wounded are two children. The Russian attack targeted the city’s Shevchenkivskyi and Saltivskyi districts.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 59
DesdamonasHandkerchief · 24/11/2025 09:54

United 24 Media:

🔹 “All initiatives aimed at achieving peace are good, but we need something that will benefit Ukrainians. The plan is good in that it offers peace and recognizes important elements regarding sovereignty and security guarantees. But it is a basis for work that needs to be reviewed, as we did last summer, because this plan, first of all, was not agreed with the Europeans,” said French President Emmanuel Macron.

🔸 The Ukrainian delegation appointed by Zelenskyy for negotiations on the Trump team’s “peace plan” has begun work in Geneva, Switzerland.

Head of the Presidential Office Andriy Yermak held his first meeting with the national security advisers to the leaders of the United Kingdom, France, and Germany — Jonathan Powell, Emmanuel Bonne, and Gunter Sautter.

According to him, the next meeting is with the US delegation.

🔹 Ternopil bids farewell to Mariia and her children, Kamila and Nazar, who were killed in Russia’s November 19 missile strike. Mariia’s husband, Kamal, is the sole survivor.

He spent three days among the ruins of their home, hoping for a miracle. The families’ bodies were nearly the last ones taken out of the rubble. During the funeral, Kamal could be seen rocking the small coffin. Rescue workers finished their search on November 22. In total, 33 people were killed, including six children.

🔸 The main part of the negotiations between Ukraine and the United States on the “peace” plan has ended in Geneva.

According to the agency’s interlocutor, the talks are described as productive, and the parties have even managed to “significantly reach agreements in some areas.”

🔹 The leadership of the United States is important — we are grateful for everything that America and President Trump are doing for security, and we remain as constructive as possible, President Zelenskyy said.

“I spoke with French President Emmanuel Macron. Our teams in Geneva are working with partners, and it is very important to achieve a practical result that brings Ukraine and all of Europe closer to reliable peace and security.

We are coordinating positions, and it is important that there is dialogue, that diplomacy is active, and that our partners hear our arguments.

We expect new updates from our teams in Switzerland.”

🇺🇸🇺🇦 Rubio called the meeting between Ukraine and the United States the most productive in the last nine months.

He added that changes were made to the document, apparently at Ukraine’s request.

A second meeting is expected soon, with the participation of European partners.

🔸 I haven't seen any "counterplan" from Europe, Rubio says.

❗️Russians struck energy infrastructure and the heating network in Kharkiv.

A transformer substation was damaged, and three residential buildings were destroyed. Ten people sought medical attention, and three were killed.

❗️The talks were constructive, focused, and respectful, underscoring a shared commitment to achieving a just and lasting peace, according to a joint statement following a meeting between the United States and Ukraine on the American peace proposal.

“Both sides found the consultations highly productive. The discussions demonstrated significant progress in agreeing on positions and identifying clear next steps.

The parties reaffirmed that any future agreement must fully respect Ukraine’s sovereignty and ensure a sustainable and just peace.

Following the negotiations, the parties prepared an updated and revised framework document for peace.

The Ukrainian delegation reiterated its gratitude to the United States — and in particular to President Donald J. Trump — for their unwavering commitment and tireless efforts to end the war and save lives.

Ukraine and the United States agreed to continue intensive work on joint proposals in the coming days.

They will also maintain close contact with European partners as the process moves forward.

Final decisions on this framework document will be made by the Presidents of Ukraine and the United States.

Both sides confirmed their readiness to continue working together to achieve peace that guarantees Ukraine security, stability, and recovery.”

🔸 Let us remember that any peaceful settlement in Ukraine will directly affect the security of the entire European continent for decades to come, said Czech Foreign Minister Jan Lipavsky in a statement on the US 28-point peace plan.

“At the same time, it is true that European security equals Czech security.

The current draft plan includes provisions that, in addition to Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, will also influence Europe’s defense capabilities.

Further diplomatic efforts will aim to finalize the plan in a way that does not compromise Czech security.

Therefore, representatives of the E3 states (Germany, France, Great Britain) and other countries already engaged in diplomatic negotiations with the United States to develop an alternative version of the peace plan have our support.

Ukraine — which was, is, and must remain an effective European bulwark against Russian imperial ambitions — also has our support.

We consider it essential to find additional sources of support for Ukraine and to continue sanctions that constrain the Russian military machine.

You cannot negotiate about Ukraine without Ukraine.
You cannot negotiate about Europe without Europe.
You cannot negotiate about the Czech Republic without the Czech Republic.

By surrendering to the aggressor in 1938, Europe gained one year of peace — and then the world war began.
Let’s learn from this.
Let’s not make the same mistake in 2025.”

🔹 We support efforts to reach a peace agreement that will end Russia’s illegal and immoral war and ensure security and stability in Europe. A lasting peace must uphold Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, promote security and stability across the continent, and ensure that Russia cannot renew its aggression,” said Australian Foreign Minister Penny Wong.

Kateryna Argyrou, president of the Australian Federation of Ukrainian Organizations, said that Trump’s plan rewards aggression, pressures Ukraine to surrender its sovereignty, and sets a dangerous precedent for the Indo-Pacific region.

“This shameful ‘deal’ is not a solution — it is a dangerous capitulation to tyranny and aggression.”

According to Argyrou, the plan rewards Putin by granting territory that is not even occupied, lifting all sanctions, returning most of Russia’s frozen assets, and offering no reparations for war crimes committed by Russian forces. It betrays Ukraine’s sovereignty by demanding that Ukraine give up territory, cut its military by half, abandon its aspirations to join NATO, and ban international peacekeeping forces, she told The Guardian.

🔥 The discount on Russian Urals crude for Indian refineries has reached a record $7, pushing the price to its lowest level in two years, Bloomberg reports.

This happened after the United States imposed sanctions on Russia’s Rosneft and Lukoil. As a result, Urals crude for Indian buyers is now $7 per barrel cheaper than Brent, with shipping costs included.

Most Indian refineries had earlier suspended orders for Russian oil scheduled for delivery after the sanctions took effect.

However, Bloomberg’s sources say the sharper discount is changing sentiment among Indian refiners, with some now willing to purchase Urals from suppliers not covered by sanctions.

Still, only about one-fifth of available cargoes are free from sanctioned entities. Before the sanctions, the Urals discount was about $3 per barrel.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 24/11/2025 10:10

Kyiv Post:

🔹 After “highly productive” talks in Geneva, Kyiv and Washington are aligned, but the proposal is now on a collision course with Moscow’s hard line.

🔸 At least four people were killed and 17 injured, including a child, as a massive Russian drone attack triggered 17 explosions and fires across Kharkiv and surrounding regions.

🔹 Behind closed doors, the US, Ukraine, and Europe edge toward consensus on a new peace framework after days of divergence.

US Secretary of State Rubio declared the opening session “the most productive and meaningful” of the entire process “from the beginning.”

🔸 Millions of Ukrainians are experiencing daily hardship as Russia continues its systematic attacks on the country’s energy infrastructure.

Repeated strikes have damaged power plants, substations, and transmission lines, leaving entire regions facing prolonged blackouts and unstable electricity supplies.

🔹 “We are at a critical moment now. There is a lot of noise in the media and a great deal of political pressure,” Zelensky said about the U.S. peace plan.

“We will continue working with our partners, primarily the United States, seeking compromises that strengthen us rather than weaken us. And we will keep explaining how dangerous it is to pretend that aggression can be ignored — as if everything has somehow ‘resolved itself.’”

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 24/11/2025 14:58

Recent reports seem to suggest that the Geneva conference softened a fair bit of the 28 point surrender plan.

It does seem to be the Trump administration way - suggest something outrageous then meet somewhere in the middle.

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