Help with ds ehcp again/amended ehcp

[Imagoodperson999]

So the LA have made changes to ds ehcp. They are not clear to me . I don't get it and i don't even know if it makes a difference. And i can't see if it helps with choosing a secondary school.

Anyway im going to copy and paste the new ehcp just section F on this post. Then im going to find the older section F and post that on my 2nd post.

I was hoping someone can help me compare them. Please bare in mind that I have learning difficulties as well . So things that seem clear to others may not be to me.

So from amended EHCP section F

(F) Special Educational Provision above quality first teaching.
Provision

· Max will join a speech and language group run by the speech and language therapist for a block of therapy to work on language, speech and communication skills. Outcomes and recommendations should also be implemented by school.
· Lego therapy would be a good way to help Max in his communication with peers in a structured session. This builds on his love of Lego.

Strategies

Max needs an appropriately differentiated curriculum. Present and give information at a language level he can understand. For example:
12 / 18
· Break down instructions into small, manageable parts or chunks.
· Before giving instructions to Max, call his name, and make sure you have his full attention and that he is looking at you.
· Model/demonstrate what Max has to do before he starts a task.
· Use short, simple instructions, and slow down when talking to Max. Try to break down instructions into short, manageable chunks (rather than “Do x, then do y”, just give one part at a time).
· Allow processing time. Then repeat instructions to Max if needed, making sure you repeat the instruction the same each time
· Use visual support (e.g. natural gesture, facial expression, pictures, symbols, written word) alongside instructions and conversations.

Vocabulary
· Develop a basic communication board with the words he needs to ask for items in class, e.g. pencil sharpener, rubber, toilet, drink, help, finished, break. Have it on the desk and point to it when communicating with Max to encourage him to use it too.

· Pre-teach key or topic vocabulary before Max comes across the words in the lesson.
· Use a consistent structure to explore word meanings and sounds. Think about the first sound of the word, how many syllables, a word it rhymes with, an action for the word, a picture or drawing for the word, use it in a sentence, and give some information about its meaning. For example, a mind map or “Word Wizard” (Word Aware programme).
· When Max has difficulties retrieving a word, prompt him using these categories that he has already covered, e.g. give him the first sound of the word, or ask him to act it out.
· Review the words that have been provided by putting them in a “word pot” or “word bank” on Max’s table, on a word wall in the classroom, or in a vocabulary book.
· Where possible present vocabulary to Max using a multi- sensory approach. Using pictures, symbols, demonstrations.
· Have Max think about words in categories. Play word association games in a small group (e.g. each person has to name something that relates to cars or has to identify the ‘odd one out’ for a list of three).
· Encourage Max to say when he does not understand a word. He can tell the teaching assistant, who can note the word down. Max can collect words that he has ‘captured’ to help expand his vocabulary knowledge.

Asking for help
· Encourage Max to ask for help if he does not know what to do. Max could be provided with a visual to help him know how to make specific requests for help. Encourage and praise asking for help in the whole class.

Access to small group work to practise Max’s social communication and conversation skills.
· Encourage small group work or naturally occurring small groups when possible in lessons, or in the playground of no more than 3 children in a group, where Max has to engage with his peers to complete the task, e.g. with opportunities to engage in “role specific” play, for example Lego Therapy, where children are either an “architect”, “engineer” or “builder”. The use of roles encourages children to interact with each other to achieve a shared goal.
· Play games at home that encourage interaction such as passing on objects, exploring together, snap or lotto.
· Give Max visual cues of good conversational skills and refer to them during 1:1 conversation, e.g. “eye contact”, or “talk about the same thing”, asking a question, saying something about what the person he is talking with has said, taking turns in conversation.
· Talkabout” or a social skills intervention may be helpful.
13 / 18
· Play games or activities which develop Max’s abilities to stay on topic during conversation, e.g. category games where you take it in turns to pick an object in the same category.
· Give Max a visual prompt you can use to show him when he goes “off topic” when answering a question. For example, a picture of a train and a track. The train can move along the track whilst you are talking or playing a game, and when Max gives an irrelevant answer or goes off topic, use the visual support to take the train off the track.
· For Max to use visual support (e.g. a narrative or talking prompt) to help him structure his news clearly e.g. to explain what he has done at the weekend or in the holidays. A talking prompt could also be used in talk partner work in class to help Max talk with a peer about a question the class is discussing

Beginning to develop Max’s explaining skills

· Read lots of stories with Max – these can be both with or without visuals and ask him questions based on the story after this, such as ‘who’ ‘what happened’ ’where’ ‘how’ and ‘what can the characters do? what is going to happen next?’ and ‘why’.
· Encourage Max to expand on his answers in conversation, by using open-ended questions, such as “tell me more”, or by giving him more time to add information.
· Use sets of pictures of familiar sequences (e.g. getting ready for school, growing a flower): put the pictures in order and talk about what happens ‘first, next, last’. Support Max work towards using this structure and vocabulary to talk about real events or to share his news and ask him what he thinks might happen next in the story.
· Try using visual support such as Black sheep press ‘Why, because’ cards to help Max explain his reasoning when answering simple ‘why?’ questions.
· Discuss different real-life scenarios using pictures and objects in a 1:1 or small group setting. Think about what might happen, why and what if. Max may benefit from structured intervention to target this, for example “Mr Goodguess” or Talkabout School/Home ( Black Sheep Press resources).
· School will give Max a piece of work/picture/item to take home to talk about with his Mum. This will help Max to generate ideas and remember an event in school.

Speech
· Provide Max with clear production of words he finds it hard to say, ensuring that he is able to see the mouth of the speaker to help him produce the sounds correctly and with slight emphasis on the word e.g. “I want soo” yes “you want two”. Can you hear that ”t” sound? Praise Max if he tries to copy the correct production or correct himself.

Arrangements for review and evaluation

Max can be re-referred to the Speech & Language service for review once these outcomes have been achieved.

Old section F will be added to my 2nd post

Based on all available info, my instinct is he isn't likely to do well in mainstream, if it's standard large comprehensives, because the kids with serious issues and low exam expectations would be reading at yr3 level on entry.

I think a decent SENCO faced with a Yr 7 with a Y1 or 2 reading age, would be very unhappy as this child would be predicted to potentially leave with no exams, so the question would be why were they being put through exam based mainstream?

A quiet yr 7 child that closes down if told things aren't good enough, will fear that teacher from then on, and with a yr1 reading age isn't going to be ok in 'normal' classes in mainstream.

He might survive the first few weeks when all the new yr7's are feeling overwhelmed, but as soon as personalities start to out, and teachers need to control classes, he'd get eaten alive in standard London schools. But, I can't imagine that he'd be put in a standard class, but many expect the SEN pupils to be in whole year classes for lots of lessons.

I can't speak for everywhere, but to give you some idea:
This is a recent 'set 9' also known as the Nurture group, in a standard London mainstream with an 'Ark' for SEN pupils.. Some yr 7 children in this set would at the absolute lowest have reading ages of yr 3 (which gives a prediction of leaving with1or 2 basic pass GCSE's) and this school has a genuine caring philosophy and tries to have all staff know which children are in this set in frequent briefings.

Uniform rules can get set 9's demerits and detentions, though they try to help them initially. Coats removed before entering, (inc when raining) but then carried with them.
These children would still be expected to be able to navigate corridor rules of anti clockwise and using correct stairwell for their yr group. However at lunch every stairwell becomes down only, and not restricted to any yr group. This was a particular point of friction for these children, (especially when bigger or harder kids felt 'disrespected' and the set 9 child tried to get away) and while genuine efforts where made to help them get it right, detentions demerits etc where given out when they attempted to return for something left behind etc.
Random teachers would shout first, before realizing it was a set 9 child.
The set 9 children might well arrive at the classroom to find a note on the door re-directing them to another classroom. If this took them 10 mins to manage, went to the wrong room, or they just stayed there, or wandered away, they would get detention. The note would look like this:
Room changes:
P1 - 8.2 go to 2.13
P2 -10.4 go to 0.02
P3 - 7.9 go to AD
P4 - 9.7 go to 3.11
Even the kids with high level difficulties would be expected to have learnt and understand and navigate this easily within a month.
Lunchtime's another difficult point, though most of these kids got their lunch and took it to the SEN dept to escape the noise and chaos. However staying there or taking themselves to SEN dept when they should have been in a lesson, would get them a detention.
They are expected to have the right equipment for classes, but are given a bit more leeway but only up to a point. ie no pe kit is detention.
They would be expected to approach all staff if they had any issues or didn't understand something, though SEN staff try to ask how they're doing in passing.
Bigger issues nearly always around peer interaction from yr 8 onward. Quiet SEN kids often drawn into being lookouts outside school, or required to 'look after' things for others, etc in and out of school. Set 9 expected to report it too. Bullying stamped on where possible, but all kids expected to report it, including to teachers that have shouted at them at some point.

This is actually a more caring school than many, but I can't see how Max fits into this sort of set up happily and goes through trouble free, leaving with no exams at the end, and that being good for him.

Yes, I would double check that and see which professional’s report it came from. I’d be very surprised if that’s the phrase they used.

This is what concerns me. The difficultly i feel I have is i have to put my choices in by 19th September. I have 2 schools in mind one is a mainstream with sen suppirt it seems good. That one is called addy and stanhope I have already looked although I may actually look again. Then there is a sen school Called Brent knowl. They have told me there is a waiting list to be able to see the school and they will contact me. So I don't even know if i will get to see that school before the 19th of September.

Then I worry that if I put down 2 schools the LA will just offer the one they want to offer not the one suitable to max . I just don't think they care.

I may be very wring but I get the feeling this is something to do with year 7 provision. The old ehcp specifies non mainstream and the new one doesn’t unless I’ve read it wrong. This would really worry me as a parent.
there were policy changes in my la (who I work for in a related field) maybe earlier this year or last year which was a big push on schools providing everything in house even though they can’t (insert many reasons mostly cash and staff). My la has a separate website thing listing everything schools are supposed to try in-house to meet the needs of sen children.
if I have read this correctly this may be the la reneging on their commitment to special educational provision.
looking at mainstream schools I would go the smaller the better with lots of experience of sen.
op you are being gaslit imo

I feel like im being gaslit. I told them I was finding it hard to understand everything due to my own learning difficulties. I think its just allowed them to take the piss more . But its hard for me to fish out the BS.

Are you able to show me the bit you mean where you said in the original it says non mainstream and new one doesn't?

I'm not sure you want the names of these schools here, I'd ask MN to remove them.

Again going only on the info available here:

A quick look at the mainstreams SEND provision says it doesn't naturally meet his current needs. If he can catch up two years in a year then maybe...
Have you asked them what they think and how they feel they might be able to work with him, and what progression they'd expect him to be able to make with them?
Their progress 8 score is below average, I'd want to know why in a school with that profile, especially when looking at it for a child who needs intervention and their progress brought forwards.

Other school: His profile is potentially a good fit, and they look like a school that could understand his needs and support and nurture him well and stretch him holistically (all over) rather than academically only, and set him up well for life.
Their progress 8 is excellent and puts them in the top 10% of special schools
nationally
Their KS2 progress in reading, writing, maths is in the top 5% of special schools and they hold a (6yr old) exceptional outcomes award.
Their range of emotional and general development focuses is exactly what I'd be after.
But they are also understandably popular.

Based on what they both state about themselves: If he was my Ds I'd be biting the 2nd one's hand off to take a look and get them meeting him.

What the progress 8 thing mesn ?

How much progress most pupils make in a secondary school. It shows if schools have helped pupils to make more progress than expected, less progress than expected, or average. (Google for more info)

Edited to remove a 'that'

Hi @Imagoodperson999.

I think your situation is very difficult tbh. From reading the EHCP, your son will likely not manage at all in mainstream secondary, and would have a very very hard time socially in a SEN school.

I think the best option would probably be a mainstream school with a specialist unit attached like a cabin or a SEN unit that he can go to to have 1:1 teaching.

My DS is in a similar situation in that he is very good in some areas but very behind in other areas. He can't go to mainsteam because while he is age 15 in real life, in his maturity he is nearer 7, and he can't cope with all the adult topics in the secondary curriculum.

However, he is very academic so needs good teaching in all subject and would likely manage well in a good university.

I showed my son both of your EHCP documents and he read them completely through. He says he thinks it would be terribly difficult for your son to be in mainstream secondary classes.

However, we have a friend who went to SEN school and he had an awful time there too because the school was overwhelmed with too many kids, who were all very dysregulated.

Is there any way that you could get your son into either:

1. a mainstream school that has a specialist cabin for ASD kids, where he could be taught all the time.

or

2. keep him at home to receive teaching from tutors by alternative provision sent from a mainstream school?

The other option is an EOTAS package which means "education other than at school"

That is the only option left and will be offered to you if there is no suitable school. That is what we have and it works well for us. In that option the council just gives you money to pay for tutors who come to the house. It's good.

Are you able to be at home all the time with your son, or do you need to go out to work?

In the right SS, DS doesn’t have to struggle socially. Whereas, in MS, I suspect as he moves through secondary, he may.

You don’t have to state 2 schools as your preferences. You can just name one. If you do name 1 MS and 1 SS, the LA is likely to name MS.

EOTAS/EOTIS (EOTIS is currently the preferred term by some judges at SENDIST, so many are moving to that) packages are bespoke. Not all include tuition. And even if it includes tuition, a package should be far more than just tuition. A package with only tutors is an inadequate package. Not all have provision at home. And parents don’t have to facilitate the provision at home or otherwise. Not all have direct payments either.

Yes the disregulation that may happen in sen school is a worry to me. I thibk thst would deeply upset ds. Hes very quite in nature bit also if something happens that scares /upsets him he will become withdrawn and even more quite abd wont communicate. And he will have all sorts of feeling that he wont be able to manage but also wont express.

With the suggestion of mainstream with a unit type thing it seems they still spend most of their time within the mainstream settlng and still have expectations that may be hard for them to follow. But in general terms I do have that as an option.

The home tutor would be a last option. Im thinking it would be very hard to fight for it. Also I don't think it would be right for him. I wouldn't do it on purpose but im likely to end up isolating him. Then he would end up behinde socially. I dont know how to explain it but I would likely cause other problems. As I say not on purpose though.

Sorry I don't understand any of that at all.

If DS was in the right special/specialist school, he wouldn’t have to struggle socially.

In mainstream, as DS gets older, I think DS may struggle socially.

You don’t have to tell the LA 2 school choices. You only need to tell them 1. If you do tell them 2 and one of them is a special school or specialist school and 1 is a mainstream school, the LA will most likely name a mainstream school in the EHCP.

EOTAS/EOTIS is Education Otherwise Than At/In School. EOTIS is the preferred term by some judged at SENDIST (the people you appeal the EHCP to). It is provision made away from a school. The provision the previous poster was talking about. the previous poster was saying it was tuition at home. I was pointing out it doesn’t have to be at home, it doesn’t have to be tuition or doesn’t have to be only tuition, parents don’t have to be at home with their DC, and not all EOTAS/EOTIS packages are funded via giving parents the money. I would forget about EOTAS/EOTIS. It doesn’t sound like it is inappropriate for provision to be made in a school for DS, therefore EOTAS/EOTIS isn’t legally possible.

Dysregulated behaviour can happen in mainstream too. Especially with the current state of schools and the SEN system.

Something you could try:

Join a local whatsapp group or facebook group for parents of SEN kids.

Ask which special schools nearby are good for kid like your DS.

Find a parent whose child goes to that school.

Ask to come with them to the school gate and see what the school is like at home time.

Perhaps that would get you information about what it suitable nearby?

Hi. I am Senco. Could you clarify. Is he home schooled. If he is in mainstream primary why was there not a transition review in Y 5 and the another review in Y6 attended by the Senco of secondary school he would be attending. To update or amend the EHCP where we're the reports from teachers, the levels, speech and language report etc.You cannot amend an EHCP without evidence of the amendments needed and why.
.

Some SEN schools are very full because legally the school is not allowed to turn a child down just because they are full.

SEN schools near us who have space for 80 kids actually have 120 kids because they are not allowed to refuse anybody without doing huge amounts of paperwork to list why it would be a problem for the other kids.

So if you consider a SEN school it would be good to find out if they are managing okay with the number of children they already have.

All seems very random.

Sorry I know its probably annoying all the letters abbreviations throw me completely. They don't even go in my head at all .its like my head skips it and then I can't understand the rest of the post.

And yes I was thinking if I choose 2 they woukd give me the mainstream no matter what . I know I can choose 1 school but its choosing the right one

I explained what EOTAS and EOTIS stand for and what they are and I explained who SENDIST are.

The other ones in my last post that I used are DS, DC, SEN, EHCP and LA. Which of those don’t you understand and I will explain.

Hes in main mainstream primary. Gos into year 6 in September. There was a review in year 5 .

Some LAs hold their phase transfer reviews in Y5, but they should actually really be held in the autumn term of Y6.

Its because I have learning difficulties myself. Even if you explain it won't stay there tine EOTAS and EOTIS are explain and then mentioned in another post it will have gone out of my head .

Just forget about EOTAS/EOTIS. Legally, it is only possible if it is inappropriate for provision to be made in a school. That doesn’t sound like it applies to DS.

If Brent Knoll is the special school that is being considered, could you go to the school gate and meet some of the parents, even if they cannot yet give you a tour?

This is the website: https://brentknollschool.co.uk/

A special school might be a good option because they would be able to give you more help as well as your son.

It would probably be a good idea to go and meet some of the parents and ask if it is good there.

Do you have an organisation for parents of disabled children in your area? If you go to it, you would certainly meet parents who have children in special schools. They could tell you more about the options.

Just got an email regarding sendia drop in it said this.

At the moment, I don't know whether the August session will be running, so I would advise not to come, unless we confirm this

Its thrown me now because I was wanting to see them once I have spoke to the LA regarding the ehcp