Help with ds ehcp again/amended ehcp

[Imagoodperson999]

So the LA have made changes to ds ehcp. They are not clear to me . I don't get it and i don't even know if it makes a difference. And i can't see if it helps with choosing a secondary school.

Anyway im going to copy and paste the new ehcp just section F on this post. Then im going to find the older section F and post that on my 2nd post.

I was hoping someone can help me compare them. Please bare in mind that I have learning difficulties as well . So things that seem clear to others may not be to me.

So from amended EHCP section F

(F) Special Educational Provision above quality first teaching.
Provision

· Max will join a speech and language group run by the speech and language therapist for a block of therapy to work on language, speech and communication skills. Outcomes and recommendations should also be implemented by school.
· Lego therapy would be a good way to help Max in his communication with peers in a structured session. This builds on his love of Lego.

Strategies

Max needs an appropriately differentiated curriculum. Present and give information at a language level he can understand. For example:
12 / 18
· Break down instructions into small, manageable parts or chunks.
· Before giving instructions to Max, call his name, and make sure you have his full attention and that he is looking at you.
· Model/demonstrate what Max has to do before he starts a task.
· Use short, simple instructions, and slow down when talking to Max. Try to break down instructions into short, manageable chunks (rather than “Do x, then do y”, just give one part at a time).
· Allow processing time. Then repeat instructions to Max if needed, making sure you repeat the instruction the same each time
· Use visual support (e.g. natural gesture, facial expression, pictures, symbols, written word) alongside instructions and conversations.

Vocabulary
· Develop a basic communication board with the words he needs to ask for items in class, e.g. pencil sharpener, rubber, toilet, drink, help, finished, break. Have it on the desk and point to it when communicating with Max to encourage him to use it too.

· Pre-teach key or topic vocabulary before Max comes across the words in the lesson.
· Use a consistent structure to explore word meanings and sounds. Think about the first sound of the word, how many syllables, a word it rhymes with, an action for the word, a picture or drawing for the word, use it in a sentence, and give some information about its meaning. For example, a mind map or “Word Wizard” (Word Aware programme).
· When Max has difficulties retrieving a word, prompt him using these categories that he has already covered, e.g. give him the first sound of the word, or ask him to act it out.
· Review the words that have been provided by putting them in a “word pot” or “word bank” on Max’s table, on a word wall in the classroom, or in a vocabulary book.
· Where possible present vocabulary to Max using a multi- sensory approach. Using pictures, symbols, demonstrations.
· Have Max think about words in categories. Play word association games in a small group (e.g. each person has to name something that relates to cars or has to identify the ‘odd one out’ for a list of three).
· Encourage Max to say when he does not understand a word. He can tell the teaching assistant, who can note the word down. Max can collect words that he has ‘captured’ to help expand his vocabulary knowledge.

Asking for help
· Encourage Max to ask for help if he does not know what to do. Max could be provided with a visual to help him know how to make specific requests for help. Encourage and praise asking for help in the whole class.

Access to small group work to practise Max’s social communication and conversation skills.
· Encourage small group work or naturally occurring small groups when possible in lessons, or in the playground of no more than 3 children in a group, where Max has to engage with his peers to complete the task, e.g. with opportunities to engage in “role specific” play, for example Lego Therapy, where children are either an “architect”, “engineer” or “builder”. The use of roles encourages children to interact with each other to achieve a shared goal.
· Play games at home that encourage interaction such as passing on objects, exploring together, snap or lotto.
· Give Max visual cues of good conversational skills and refer to them during 1:1 conversation, e.g. “eye contact”, or “talk about the same thing”, asking a question, saying something about what the person he is talking with has said, taking turns in conversation.
· Talkabout” or a social skills intervention may be helpful.
13 / 18
· Play games or activities which develop Max’s abilities to stay on topic during conversation, e.g. category games where you take it in turns to pick an object in the same category.
· Give Max a visual prompt you can use to show him when he goes “off topic” when answering a question. For example, a picture of a train and a track. The train can move along the track whilst you are talking or playing a game, and when Max gives an irrelevant answer or goes off topic, use the visual support to take the train off the track.
· For Max to use visual support (e.g. a narrative or talking prompt) to help him structure his news clearly e.g. to explain what he has done at the weekend or in the holidays. A talking prompt could also be used in talk partner work in class to help Max talk with a peer about a question the class is discussing

Beginning to develop Max’s explaining skills

· Read lots of stories with Max – these can be both with or without visuals and ask him questions based on the story after this, such as ‘who’ ‘what happened’ ’where’ ‘how’ and ‘what can the characters do? what is going to happen next?’ and ‘why’.
· Encourage Max to expand on his answers in conversation, by using open-ended questions, such as “tell me more”, or by giving him more time to add information.
· Use sets of pictures of familiar sequences (e.g. getting ready for school, growing a flower): put the pictures in order and talk about what happens ‘first, next, last’. Support Max work towards using this structure and vocabulary to talk about real events or to share his news and ask him what he thinks might happen next in the story.
· Try using visual support such as Black sheep press ‘Why, because’ cards to help Max explain his reasoning when answering simple ‘why?’ questions.
· Discuss different real-life scenarios using pictures and objects in a 1:1 or small group setting. Think about what might happen, why and what if. Max may benefit from structured intervention to target this, for example “Mr Goodguess” or Talkabout School/Home ( Black Sheep Press resources).
· School will give Max a piece of work/picture/item to take home to talk about with his Mum. This will help Max to generate ideas and remember an event in school.

Speech
· Provide Max with clear production of words he finds it hard to say, ensuring that he is able to see the mouth of the speaker to help him produce the sounds correctly and with slight emphasis on the word e.g. “I want soo” yes “you want two”. Can you hear that ”t” sound? Praise Max if he tries to copy the correct production or correct himself.

Arrangements for review and evaluation

Max can be re-referred to the Speech & Language service for review once these outcomes have been achieved.

Old section F will be added to my 2nd post

Its extremely hard to choose a school when i don't know what support he will get . I don't even know if hes suited for mainstream or sen school. I could end up choosing a school not suitable for him due to a crap ehcp.

I have to choose by 19th September cant see how I can do that

Choose your school preference based on the support DS needs even if the EHCP is poor. You can always appeal the EHCP to improve the content if the support DS needs isn’t included in the EHCP.

What are his described needs? The outcomes that these strategies are designed to support?

Hi @Imagoodperson999,

I find those two secton F documents extremely hard to read because they are so long.

I tried asking chatGPT to read them and tell me what the difference is. I wondered if I could offer it's answer to you in case it helps at all?

Here is the summary it gave:

Summary of Key Differences:

• First Document: More focused on language skills, social communication, and speech therapy. It uses strategies to improve Max's peer interactions, vocabulary development, and conversation skills.
• Second Document: Primarily focused on academic learning strategies like Precision Teaching, differentiated instruction, overlearning, and ensuring Max can access the curriculum with additional support.

In addition, here are the summaries of the sections as written by ChatGPT:

Key Differences Between the Two Documents:
1. Focus on Provision vs. Strategies

• First Document:
• Focuses more on social communication and language development. There's a clear emphasis on Max's need for speech and language support, as well as strategies to build communication, vocabulary, and conversational skills.
• Key provisions involve Lego therapy, social skills interventions, and speech therapy.
• Second Document:
• The emphasis is on academic progress, with a focus on curriculum-based assessment in subjects like Maths and Literacy. It also specifies the need for precision teaching and tailored, structured approaches for Max's learning.
• It outlines differentiated instruction, errorless learning, and visual supports to ensure Max can access the curriculum.
• The approach seems more academic-oriented, with specific references to handwriting, math manipulatives, and memory retention strategies.

2. Language and Learning Support

• First Document:
• Focuses heavily on vocabulary development, asking for help, and using visual supports to aid understanding. It also includes strategies like visual prompts and social stories to improve Max's communication with peers.
• There is a larger emphasis on structured communication (e.g., talking prompts, conversation skills), and visual support to aid language retrieval.
• Second Document:
• Focuses more on differentiation and academic skills: For example, curriculum assessment in Maths and English, the need for small group learning, and consistent review of key learning points.
• It focuses on high levels of support, such as visual materials, practical activities, and errorless learning techniques, but the emphasis is on ensuring Max understands academic content rather than purely social or language-based interventions.

3. Specific Interventions and Support

• First Document:
• Speech and Language therapy is central. It mentions Lego Therapy, social communication games, and specific word retrieval strategies.
• Max is encouraged to participate in small group work and engage in peer interactions.
• There is also emphasis on reading stories to help with comprehension, using visual aids to help explain content, and working on explanatory skills through structured questioning.
• Second Document:
• The second document highlights specific academic interventions like Precision Teaching for spelling/number automaticity, mastery learning, and cumulative learning strategies.
• The document also includes specific details like the use of vocabulary boards, writing frames, and storyboards for academic tasks.
• The goal is more focused on retaining and recalling academic content (e.g., Maths, literacy, and handwriting).

4. Structure and Format of Learning

• First Document:
• The learning approach is modular and flexible, emphasizing the importance of breaking tasks into smaller chunks and giving Max sufficient time to process information.
• The social aspect of learning is more prominent, with a clear focus on group interaction and strategies like turn-taking and topic maintenance in conversation.
• Second Document:
• The second document uses systematic and structured approaches, such as distributed practice, mastery learning, and errorless learning.
• There is a stronger emphasis on structured academic tasks, such as spelling and number retention, and a clear focus on ensuring success in learning via tailored, small steps that Max can achieve.

5. Specific Needs for Max’s Learning Style

• First Document:
• Max's communication skills are emphasized, with strategies to help him express needs, ask for help, and work on social skills (like eye contact, and staying on topic).
• There is a strong emphasis on visual learning and sensory approaches to learning, like multi-sensory vocabulary development.
• Second Document:
• The focus here is more on ensuring that Max has the right physical and cognitive tools to access learning, such as handwriting support (e.g., slope cushions) and math manipulatives.
• There is an emphasis on differentiation, particularly breaking tasks into small steps and providing visual support for Max’s understanding of academic tasks.

6. Social Interaction vs. Academic Achievement

• First Document:
• A lot of emphasis is on Max’s social skills and interactions. The document provides strategies to improve his peer relationships, such as engaging in role-playing games (e.g., Lego Therapy) and developing conversation skills.
• Second Document:
• The second document is more about academic performance, such as differentiated instruction in Maths and English, overlearning, and using techniques like Precision Teaching and mastery learning to ensure that Max can make academic progress.

7. Role of Support Staff

• First Document:
• The role of support staff seems to be centered around social communication (helping Max with group work, encouraging peer interactions, and supporting his language development).
• Second Document:
• The second document outlines a more academic role for support staff, especially in terms of one-on-one support to ensure Max understands the material and continually practices academic skills. The document specifies LSA involvement in helping Max with structured tasks and giving personalized explanations.

I don't understand what you mean?

Im so sorry. But im not going to read that. I absolutely hate CHATGPT it confuses me. If I read all that it will send me into a deep hole of confusion.

But how can the school confirm they can reach ds needs if the ehcp is not as it should be for ds ?

Parents often look at schools and decide their preference whilst having a poor EHCP. It doesn’t prevent you from stating your preferred placement. Parents even appeal section I (as well as B&F) of the EHCP and state a preferred placement whilst the content of the EHCP is poor.

You can speak to schools about DS’s actual presentation, needs, support required rather than basing all your conversations just on the poor EHCP. Explain the EHCP is poor, you are trying to improve it via the review process and, if necessary, will appeal.

At the start of term, can you ask for a discussion with the current school's SENCO?
Explain you are struggling with the proposed EHCP.
Ask the SENCO their opinion.

Could he access the mainstream curriculum and make friends at mainstream? And if not then why not?

Should he be going to Mainstream or Special school for secondary?
Which (Special?) school does she think would best meet his needs and why?

At this point the primary school won't be massively impacted by the change in EHCP so they may be inclined to be more open with you.

I get fobbed of by senco. They say things to reasure me tell me im over thinking tell me he will be fine. But they are not actually listening to my worrys or actually answering my questions/concerns.

Don't get me wrong the primary school is great. Hes happy . But I think secondary is a whole new thing the ehcp for primary wont work in secondary.

Secco have told me he will be fine in mainstream secondary. But for me nothing is clear. I have tried to talk to them and uts likr they talk around it.

Im not against mainstream or SEN school I just want to be sure everything is being done right by him.

Im so confused . I just got this email after I said I didn't agree with the changes.

There have been no changes made to Max’s provision; the only changes that have been made highlighted in yellow are from Max’s annual review paperwork sent through from school of which you were in attended his annual review.

I didn't see anything heigh lighted in yellow.

But she's saying there has not been any changes but my 1st 2 posts on this thread are from the original section F in 2022 and then the amended section F that was recently done . They look completely different. I feel like im going mad

Was the EHCP amended following the ARs in 2023 or 2024? The EHCP finalised in 2022 may not be the current version of the EHCP.

If the document you have doesn’t show highlighted information, then reply saying that.

I have an appointment to see them next week so we are going to go through it then.

I may regret this, obviously I haven't met Max and it's very hard to predict what he needs without even meeting him, but IMHO going off the information on this thread and especially what's in the new report as an indicator of his current levels of need, and some of your other threads:

Without a miracle year 6, Max is highly likely to only do best in a special school secondary placement where the focus is on helping him develop all the skills over time he needs for good independent living and work in the future as the main goal of his secondary education, (everything else is a bonus) and keeping him away from trouble.

Why? Because assuming correct diagnosis, the early intervention he needed for MLD either hasn't happened or hasn't worked well enough for him to be heading to mainstream next year.
The new stuff is woolly in how it's written, but also shows how far behind he is in that these are the strategies that I'd have expected to see on the yr 1/2 ehcp.
Trying to now get him over the line on paper as improving, wont help in mainstream.

He'd be going with massive disadvantages to try and overcome at the wrong stage, and trying to make it with tougher sharper kids as mates. It's a recipe for a shit show.

I'm assuming he has difficulty with expressive and receptive language, and communication and that separating which bits are caused by autism and which by MLD and how to tackle each is a specialist job. A yr 1 (or 2) reading level will give him hell in yr7 mainstream.
Academic achievements aren't going to happen until some of his bigger basic learning difficulties are addressed. His moderate learning difficulties need properly addressing to help bring him on in life generally and manage it well as far as possible.

He will be developing as a teenager during this, and should receive appropriate help as part of special schools goals. They will be better equipped to recognize how to help you help him, and more aware of and interested in the importance of this.

He is more likely to have a better and more useful journey through childhood and education and suffer less damage in the process.
If it's successful, he will be well placed to go on to a special needs college and learn useful skills and acquire certification, possibly some standard exams, and on to work that he is able and willing to to do and have a better life.

In the event of him doing really well in special school moving to mainstream isn't difficult.

The competition for special school places may mean he can't get into one.

I suspect at most mainstreams he will mainly be in a unit or bottom stream that focuses on SEN's not overwhelming the mainstream classes, and the schools results and added value created by it, rather than focusing on his main needs as a whole individual.

If this is what you are left having to accept, I'd choose one that has a unit and doesn't integrate with mainstream classes for some lessons. Reduce potential trouble by Yr8.

Trying to push him to manage some bits academically at low levels without addressing his bigger learning difficulties is not going to be a great time for him and likely to cause resentment and bring him into conflict. He and other struggling bored conflicted kids will all be issues to each other if not brilliantly managed.

He will be developing into a teenager during this and will be relying on home to help him develop well and appropriately regardless of what's going on at school, though he will be given pshe lessons that he may or may not be able to access well.
School is unlikely to be set up to help you help him, if even interested.
If things go wrong he is unlikely to be able to then access a special school and likely to end up in a PRU that will then try to repair the damage and help him, but in a really difficult environment.

He is likely to have a more negative time and suffer more damage in the process.
He might or might not be able to get some basic exams through this route, but is less likely to end up a happy well rounded young person and more likely to have more 'interesting' things to get up to than trying to go on to college or into work.

That's being very harsh about the ability of most mainstream secondaries to really help children like Max, but also very honest, because the one's that can, are usually in better areas with able parents who can navigate systems and pay for extra help.

Sorry if it's rough, but hope the straight forwardness helps you in pushing for the best deal you can get for him. Ehcp's can be sorted as you go.

IME we don't always need to know exactly what we're doing as parents or understand how to. Using knowing what we don't want to happen can be a good starting point.

Ask for the document showing the highlighted information before next week. That way you can read and understand it, make notes, etc. before the meeting.

@Elleherd it's a moderate language disorder, not moderate learning difficulties.

OP, the list you provided is the strategies that are suggested, not the actual outcomes. It would be helpful to see the outcomes listed. They probably start "Max will...." And be a sentence or two long each.

I wasn't sure if there was much point . Since they tell me they have not made changes inlt the high light yellow . Yet section F on the 2022 original is totally different to the amended one.

Maybe I can get a paper copy of each and put it side by side . I may be able to make mire sense of it. Then I could heigh ligjt abd make notes.

@KingstonTown you're absolutely right I've written Moderate learning difficulties by mistake.
I do get tripped by acronyms. It used to be called Specific Language Impairment.

My view of best option for him is based on where he's developed to at this point, and a few other things.

Edited to say too late to edit the mistake on the other post.

There is a point. You need to be able to read the correct documents before the meeting. So, you either need the document with the highlights (because the EHCP wasn’t amended following the 2023 or 2024 AR so there are differences between the version finalised in 2022 and the proposed amendments) or if the EHCP was amended following the 2023 or 2024 AR, you need to know that (because you need that version - which you would have received following the previous AR).

You could request a paper copy or print out a copy.

Yes it is moderate language disorder. But I am starting to wounder if he does have moderate learning difficulties as well. Im not sure hiw i look into that though. I just always made the assumption the school would pick up on it if t here was . I will look for the max will parts of the ehcp

So in a nut shell are you saying hes likely to be better in SEN school?

Through out my threads about DS i always sway between the both. Because im just not sure.

With the mainstream side the things that go on my head are. Max is very quite. He rarely talks at school. Hes sensitive to tones of voice and words used. If hes told its not good enough. He will completely close down. He will fear that teacher for all the years hechas to see them.

When hes just sitting there not doing his work is he going to have detentions thrown at him.. put in dfl . Because he couldn't communicate that he doesn't understand and then even if its explained he lost them 5 words in.

What teachers/staff have time to actually get to know max understand his needs and how he works as a person mentally and emotionally.

Mainstream socially max would probably be ok. He would be one of the quite chikdren and may mix with chikdren simlar to himself.

Also how does it work in year 7 amd theres a child working at year 1 level.

Then I start thinkong am I over thinkong all this he could be absolutely fine.

I want someone to actually say to me. If max is not doing the work. We will not shout or be stern . We will ask him if he needs help. He will not be punished due to his difficulties. Etc.

With the sen schools academic wise it would probably work. But I worry how it would he for him socially. I keep being told by professionals that the sen schools are for children with complex needs and max is not severe enough socially and that it could mess him up in a social kind of way. And I dont want that for him either.

I think it's really difficult when a kid is great in one area and very behind in another, as you say Max is.

It sounds as though he needs the social side of mainstream and the 1:1 side from special school.

Might it work if he was signed up to a mainstream school but had a lot of his academic teaching from tutors at home, while he does his social stuff at school?

That is definitely possible if you have an EHCP.

It would mean asking to be placed in the mainstream school, and just attend for a few lessons that he likes. He would then have alternative provision tutors come to the house to teach him Maths, English and science just 1:1.

That is definitely possible if you can find a headmaster who is sympathetic.

Moderate language disorder isn’t a phrase used in the UK. MLD will mean moderate learning difficulties. Then there is DLD/SLI - developmental language disorder also known as specific language impairment.

Im not sure how that would work

Period 1 PE at school. Period 2 English at home. Period 3 art at school. How's that going to work how's he travelling from one setting to another withom a few mins