How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

Maybe the issue is your expectations? She’s barely a tween at 8 and if emotionally immature even less so. If you reframe to think of her emotionally as 6 it might all
be calmer

You're comparing her to his "lovely kind" sister who never behaves like this. "The others would have apologised" "the others wouldn't have done this" "the others..."

She is her. She may find behaving the way you expect harder. She may be reacting out because she feels you always compare - you may not say that but she'll know how you feel.
She may have given up trying to behave well enough because she feels that she can never match up to them.

I was the middle one. #1 was bright across the board. Sort of child who always worked hard and teachers begged to do their subject at GCSE. It wasn't really talked about much, but I did know.
#3 was touted as being incredibly exceptionally bright, and very ostentatiously worked (as in would at public moments announce they had to go and revise/do homework - I was a bit sceptical as they were always "on a break" if anyone went in, but their work ethic was much lauded). It was often talked about it in front of me how amazing they were.

And I was the middle one. I felt I could never achieve like they did, so I stopped working. It was easier on my self-esteem to not work and say to myself that if I had worked then I'd have done as well as them, than work hard and show that I couldn't do as well as them.

Here's the big thing. I did actually get better GCSEs as them, same A-levels and got into a better uni than them (they applied and didn't get offers). Not being big headed, but on paper I am academically better.
It took me to well after uni to realise that, and even now I feel inadequate at times even though I know I have the paper qualifications that people go "wow!" at - theirs are still pretty good, I'll add. Yes, that sounds arrogant, but even knowing that, I feel not as good as them because of how things were handled in childhood.

And I think that's the rut you may be in. She doesn't feel she can ever gain your approval, so why should she try? Even if she behaves as well as she can, then all you'll think is she's "nearly as good".

I think there's ways you can help. Never say "look how well your sister's behaving" or things like that. Tbf even saying "thank you for doing that" to her sister will feel to her as though you've added "not like your sister who never behaves like that."
Give her time on her own when possible (and to the others too). Perhaps try and find something that is hers to do, so she's not being compared. Perhaps a drama group where you can all watch her or something.

This stood out to me:
week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick.

I'm assuming from this that dd10 criticised her. Yes, she shouldn't have hit, but really you should also have spoke to dd10 (in front of dd8 too) about not criticising. In the childish terms "she started it". And actually siblings can be very manipulative about getting each other into trouble.
You then say
not saying her sister is perfect, but she’s fairly sweet and very kind, she is definitely not the root cause of this.
Actually she was the root cause of that incident. Yes, it may have seemed small to you, but it was the cause. If she hadn't criticised her sister then it wouldn't have happened. And it wasn't "sweet and very kind" either, was it?

So you need to crack down on that too, so your 8yo knows that you will back her up in not being criticised by her sister. It's hard; it's a natural thing for the older ones to boss the younger ones around, but she needs to know that needs to come from you, not from her.

Haha, I've fixed it! Not even sure how that happened!

It sounds like life is incredibly difficult at the moment. I don’t have solutions but a couple of suggestions that may or may not be feasible?
. Could you and your husband perhaps have counselling to perhaps enable him to step up a bit?
. could you hire some help? Even a babysitter to divide and conquer occasionally and give you some support? You seem very alone in dealing with all this?
. Can the school help with strategies that work there? Rewards instead of punishments or nipping things in the bud, rather than letting small things go then everything escalating when behaviour worsens?
I understand how ground down you must be coping with all this. I’ve heard the Explosive Child book is excellent for finding a better balance of communication?

Have you considered getting therapy for yourself?

If she has LD so severe she is being held back it would suggest she doesn’t process what she’s being told so your approach to her behaviour is meaningless to her. Have you tried doing something very clear and basic like a Star Chart with positive behaviour smiley stickers and sad faces for poor behaviour? Are you rewarding/acknowledging positive behaviour? Old school but worth a go

Checked out Dad is definitely impacting the children whether they consciously realise it or not

Go to gp
Get some support
Work some strategies
Count to 10
Rewards always
You doing what you can and take it day by day don't sweat over reactions tweens and teens will lash out
Ask school for support watch some supernanny episodes for ideas like family rules worked out altogether. reward jars etc

You doing it all alone
That s a nig thing
But emphasise with your dc

When I was a child of 8 I had a nose for weak authority and would play up like no one's business just to test them. If an adult was tough but reasonable with me I would choose to work with them. Do you ever see chinks of light that she is capable of doing well at school or behaving properly? If you do, it means she really is playing up and needs help. If you see that she does not cotton on at all and notice she is not achieving to her age level, she also needs help and understanding. Both ways, she needs help. A pattern like hers is counter productive and, if she is like this at 8, what will she be like during the difficult teens. You need to be the adult here, make provision, and be very firm with sound boundaries.

Ignore all the you should have done this and you shouldn't have done that. What's done is done and here we are. Can you sit down either with to get 8 year old or all 3 and say last night wasn't great, I think we were all tired and grumpy so let's draw a line under it and start again. Shall we have a nice chilled day so we feel better for the competition tomorrow? Is there anything you'd like to do? I was thinking of (insert something low key each child might like eg stream something on Netflix and have some popcorn or play monopoly or just relax.). Then try to keep it light-hearted.

You said you have family coming could they help baking a cake or planning refreshments. Just move on and don't feel bad about holding her back a year, it sounds like a good plan.

Good luck I remember those years and sometimes it's just about survival.

I know you don’t want to discuss your marriage like you said in your OP but it’s a HUGE factor here. You’re stressed and your kids will be picking up on it whether they understand it or not

You’ve had a big move, do you have a support network where you are?

“If it was any of the other kids, they’d have apologised. But this one just can’t understand why I’m being so mean”

OP, if she has learning difficulties, then it’s possible that she quite literally can’t understand, so expecting an apology is pointless.

“the other children then think I’m showing favouritism towards her and letting her get away with everything.”

So take them to one side and explain to them that DD is not getting away with things, it’s just that everything is more difficult for her, so you all have to make allowances.

As far as tomorrow’s competition is concerned, yes, I do think you need to allow her a chance to earn back the right to compete. I agree with a previous poster about making the punishment fit the crime, but also, in managing expectations so that she knows what the deal is in any given situation - “This is what’s going to happen. We are going into the supermarket and I am taking one trolley and you can push it for one row each starting with the oldest, so you, DD, get to push the trolley in row three.” Explaining things so your DD knows exactly what’s going to happen may well make things easier for her. She has got a lot to contend with - school isn’t going so well; you’ve moved house, and you yourself had a breakdown. That’s a lot for any child to deal with, so pick your battles and don’t be so hard on either her or yourself!

Forget the trolley incident and let her go to the competition. Then start fresh on Monday with a conversation about expected behaviour with all 3 of them. Being kind, helping around the house with small chores etc.

With DD8- she needs more help than the other 2. Can you get her some help with her school work, maybe just an hour a week at that age, one day after school. She gets individual attention and hopefully help with education which will give her some confidence back to feel better about herself at school.

agree with pps above who say any punishment must be at the time of the incident, not 2/3 days later as the link isn’t there for young children, she’ll have forgotten all about it and not understand, resulting in her thinking you’re being mean to her.

also, and this is hard, but try not to say ‘no’ all the time, at least make sure that’s not the 1st word of your reply. So instead of ‘no, you can’t do that’, something like ‘we need to do x because…’, or anything really but as soon as she hears ‘no’ she won’t hear anything else. You need to give the reasons first while she’s listening.
Straight ‘no’ is for emergencies when she is being unsafe

I really feel for you OP. You’re basically alone with 3 small children and you don’t have to justify that you went shopping at 9pm! These things happen and ‘routine’ isn’t easy or achievable for everyone. I’m going against the grain here, I think you handled it as well as you could have. Punishment isn’t always bad, and being ‘mean’ sometimes helps. Actions have consequences. But I will say that therapy should be a priority. My niece had play therapy at a similar age and it was transformative for her. Please look into this.

cause and effect

she causes the problem and you give the effect, but she isn't getting it and that is normal, its between 6-13 that children learn abut consequences. If she is immature then she will be behind with learning abut consequences of her own actions.

Missing out on sports and sports comp isn't in my mind the way to go - its much more likely to encourage good mood than deter - sports is good for the brain at this age and through to teens. If this time the sports has to be missed as youve now said it - fine but id not go down the road again

id perhaps try the tact of you believe ive been mean to you - well thats as youve been mean to me - so perhaps we could be nice to each other instead. If she misbehaves getting her to do nice stuff (unpacking the car, helping with dishes etc) to make up for it rather than negative punishments

She sounds very much like my daughter. I found it really hard to discipline her as she really didn't understand consequences and had an answer for everything. I begged for help and had her assessed but nobody would listen, all they could see was my own poor mental health. I was a single parent and her older sister resented her as she got all of the attention, they fought most days.

She was 19 and 24 before being diagnosed with autism and ADHD. She's 26 with 3 kids with autism/ adhd, she can't look after, I was diagnosed myself with ADHD 2 years ago. In all honesty it's still a bit of a nightmare. We really needed the help when she was young.

I know it's probably not helpful but I just wanted to say I see you. You're doing your best.
. While she's waiting for her assessment do some research on how to help a child with autism/ ADHD understand consequences ( not punishments)
. Don't take them shopping
. Don't take away her sport, it might be the only thing to keep her out of trouble later.
. Try avoid anything that will make her kick off. It's easy to think, she should or shouldn't behave like this but she does.
. Tell her your plan for the day and try not to change it. Keep reminding her of what's happening next. Sudden changes or expectations can be really stressful.
. She's probably very immature for her age, keep this in mind when talking to her.
. Accept who she is, she probably doesn't see or understand the world like you do.
. Ask for help.
Good luck 💐

My 7 year old son can be like this. He is diagnosed with ADHD (he scored high on the test) and he also has RSD - rejection sensitivity dysphoria and sensory processing difficulties.
He’s a lovely boy, certainly not unhappy but sounds like your daughter. In the moment he cannot grasp the situation, ‘normal’ punishment does not work.
I just have to try and minimise potential meltdown situations by thinking and planning ahead, having routine and trying to educate myself.
Good luck xx

@OhShutUpThomas you're doing much better than you think. Really.

You've had some excellent advice here re parenting her differently which I can't add to. Ignore the few unhelpful comments earlier in the thread.

I just want to say that even though you don't feel like it, you sound like a great mum. You're carrying the world on your shoulders and you must feel so alone right now. Come talk whenever you need to.
Do you have your own family and friends to lean on at all? Is your gp keeping an eye on your mental health?

I appreciate it probably feels impossible with all that you're dealing with, but as someone further along in their recovery from a breakdown, I really recommend taking a few minutes each day to meditate. Start small, with just 5 minutes, but it'll help you cope with all of this.

Lots of different types of meditations to try - you don't have to sit there in silence trying to clear your mind. Or look up relaxtions.

You've got this 💪💐

She's had a big move this year (much effort needed to get to know all new kids)
She is now being held back a year at School. Highlighted recently at School.
She is 8, growing and possibly pre-puberty.
She's unhappy & confused. She will 'play up' to you as you are the Safe Person.

Dial all expectations back (except violence to self or others / fleeing from shop)
Let her do her sport (she may do well & get non academic confidence from that)

Ensure she has the right support at School. (consider GP/Caamhs?)

you may as well had just let her have a trolley to push around, there would have been enough to go around at that time. Although I know she was acting up before then anyway.

@DarkwingDuk Can I just pick you up on that and suggest you mean logical consequences?

Natural consequences (you don't brush your teeth, you get fillings) are often way too long term and unreliable (your siblings are fairly likely to start speaking to you again after you hit them, but they might not) for younger or less able children.
Logical consequences (you aren't ready for bed you don't get a story, you can't be nice to your sister you aren't ready to socialise with your friend either) are often more short term and understood better by DCs like this.

Rubbish

Hard to say. I'm too strict for a scenario like this to occur.

From experience children often don't learn from reason, particularly at the height of emotions, they learn from consequences.

I introduce consequences for bad behaviour, and provide reasoning when they appear ready

Such good advice. Press the reset button: we’ll do better tomorrow. Big hugs all round

Is she middle, or youngest?

You are doing your best with limited capacity. You need strategies that help you to work smarter not harder.

Your daughter needs clear communication and consistency from you.

In the absence of any 'diagnosis' of special needs you can still use parenting strategies that benefit this population of children (and in fact all children).

She will not understand you randomly taking away privileges as a 'punishment' if this has not been clearly communicated in advance as a consequence of her behaviour.

However, if her pony is important to her, and if doing things with the pony is the way she is regulating her emotions/feelings - then using that as a punishment is going to always compound the situation and make things worse. As she will just continue to become more and more deregulated and her behaviour will get worse not better.

There is a parenting method called parenting 123 - look it up. Some of it is a bit outdated now - but it's core concepts are very applicable on this type of situation.

Mostly it's to try and take out the parental emotion (the big splash/reaction) that the child is looking for and to offer both child/parent a breathing space to de-escalate a situation.

But basically.

Identify in advance what behaviours you are wanting to stop. You talk to her and tell her if she does these things, what the consequences will be (be realistic don't make it a big thing for a minor issues)

When she starts exhibiting these behaviors you start the count - but calmly and without any big emotions from you.

Don't give long lengthy explanations.

Just say something brief. Like 'i don't like this xxx behaviour. That's 1.'

Then if she doesn't respond ' That's 2'

And if she still doesn't respond and you get to three - then you go through with the consequence.

And here's the important bit - you have to start at the same time with the positive things to build your relationship. Notice when she is giving you good behaviors and gently praise her. Tell her how well she calmed down and noticed how she regulates. Give her opportunities to play well with her siblings and notice when they are doing a good job. Help her to be kind and to notice how that affects her feelings to her sister. (Making her a card, writing a message telling her the things she appreciates about her)

Have a good behaviors chart to work towards a special treat.

You also have to set the children/her up for success. Taking a child who is already tired at the end of the week to a supermarket, and is up late was always going to end in disaster - no matter how necessary you might have thought it was.

But we are only human and get stuff wrong. So just move forward and try to avoid flash points in the future.

Good luck, I hope things improve.