How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

She was there when I rang and it was explained in detail. I actually re-explained it this morning but didn’t type all that out. The crux of it was ‘not today’

While I appreciate that this was outside your normal routine it was likely the result of an 8buear old having been to the cinema, no doubt some sugary treats and a late night shopping trip. You probably need to look at a better plan next time. My kids swim competitively and I wouldn't use the threat of missing a competition as a sanction. Have you tried rewards / bribery? Also consider smaller sanctions closer in time e.g. earlier bedtime, removal of TV privileges, no cinema trip etc.

Does she go to a private school?
I aak because of the being kept back thing....you say she's very behind in her work?
Have school put interventions in place to support her?
Can you tell me how she is behind?
This is going to be really affecting herself esteem so I would be looking for ways to really boost that.

Nope, they would all want to push it and moan if I only let DD8. They are all hyper competitive, I don’t know why. Then I’d have the other kids sulking because I’m favouring the youngest.

I do try and foresee what will cause issues, but I have to trail all three around with me everywhere, so something always causes issues.

Their father is the product of an abusive childhood, and although he really does try, he is just not equipped to deal. Which makes it much harder than ‘he’s just a shit.’

I am exhausted.

Yes I think I got it wrong. Should I try and let her earn it back? It’s tomorrow.

We only nipped in for milk and bread. The trolley was just because DS wanted it.

Children with additional needs can't be parented in the same way as other children.

Things to consider - ensure that the "punishment" fits the crime. There should be consequences for poor behaviour where that is a choice they make. Not for being overwhelmed, or for struggling with stuff. I say consequences, rather than punishment. Natural consequences are much simpler to understand. So "you can't do X in a week's time because you did y" doesn't always make sense to a child. But "you hurt your sister so now you need to find a way to make it up to her" might.

Treating all children the same is difficult because they are not the same. I have some children with additional needs and some without. We talk about the difference between everyone being treated the same, and everyone being treated the way they need. Should everyone go to bed at the same time? Should everyone eat the same all the time?

Be kind to yourself as well. Sometimes you have to find a way that doesn't make you life harder in the process!

How old is DS?

But ponies take a lot of time, you have ponies to look after, events at the weekend, 3 kids, useless husband and are doing your shopping after going to the cinema and shopping for a full shop at 9 o’clock at night and you are punishing an 8 year old for playing up? Most mum’s in your position (and my husband has been away lots) cut their cloth accordingly. Online shopping. Less random activities etc…

@OhShutUpThomas I totally understand the feeling of being on your own my exh worked away for weeks of time so what was up to me to navigate parenting two dc by myself. I know how hard it can be. You need to be more firm with them all. You sit in the car and you say we’re going into the shop I need to get XYZ. I am pushing the trolley don’t ask me I won’t give you the trolley. Here’s your list dd, here is your list ds, These are the things that I would like you to find for me in the shop, please. If you do this, then we will be out in a half an hour. Will be done what would you like to do when we get home? Keep the communication concise and clear keep the expectations, concise and clear so no one is under any illusions as to what is expected of them. This will not work the first time and it may not work the second time. But by the third time they will get the message that this is how it works and that is how you will do the shopping from now on. Apply this process to other activities.

like all parenting aspects this will not happen overnight. It will take 3 to 4 occasions for the new regime to kick in. And then there’s the added bonus of them growing up a little bit as time goes by also so their understanding should improve.

I’ve seen your recent post. Why didn’t you hold one hand and get the other two to get the bread and milk. Tell them all no trollers as we only need bread and milk?

if you suspect a child can’t understand then you are not punishing them. They’re not learning anything from it. It’s just an arbitrary sanction you are imposing and of course they will feel furious and feel that you’ve been randomly cruel. That’s going to sink their self image lower. I’d move this to the SN board for more targeted advice.

The other siblings thing is hard but not all siblings can be parented the same. This is part of family life too. You can explain that to the other kids in an age appropriate way. They might understand if you explain that for this DD, going out of routine even to do something nice can set off anxiety. Or that not being able to have a lot of control sets off DD’s anxiety and that means a struggle to ‘be in charge’.
And yes it also might be that the other kids resent that. That’s a part of normal family life too- kids suspecting with or without good reason that they are being treated differently by parents. But you still have to parent in a way that works for you and the kids in the moment so there’s not always going to be a choice about that.

Please seek support for you because all this is very hard.

Can’t they all just have their own trolleys? What’s going to happen? I agree with the poster you quoted OP, that’s good advice.

My reflection when I read your post was that you’re reading a lot of manipulative, sinister motives into the behaviour of an eight-year-old. I think it would be helpful to get out of the mindset because it makes her your enemy and this won’t bring out constructive behaviour in you. Even if you say it was her behaviour before the trolley incident that was the issue, what you said and what she picked up was that it was the trolley incident. She’s not getting stable parenting messages from that. Best of luck, it sounds tough but also like she’s reacting to a tough situation.

This sounds so difficult and you all sound exhausted. Having extra hobbies and interests outside school is great for lots of reasons but your family situation isn’t benefiting from it at present.
Your DD’s needs are complex and you are doing your very best to parent two other children too. I would advise you to, as a family, take a step back from all of this extra stuff for a while. Take the pressure off from all of you and give yourselves time to reset. Your family life sounds very hard work for all of you. Could you arrange a time for you all to sit together for 10 mins - give a short time period so not too daunting! Prepare a succinct 2 mins directed at each child. One good thing followed by one thing that’s making things difficult. Conclude by saying the same thing about yourself and suggest one change. If your children want to go on longer, let them but cut it short if temperature rises!
Give them time to process what you’ve talked about. No huge changes immediately but begin to ‘reset’.
(Your DH should be offering much more support to his family too.)

I have two DS with autism and LDs and find any kind of future punishment does not work. We deal with it then and there, and then we move on. This might be worth a try. Sounds like her self-esteem is very low, being held back a year while probably a good idea is not going to make a child feel good about themselves so I would definitely avoid punishment by removing the competitive sport that she enjoys.

My son was similar. He's 19 now, and things are much better. About that age things were terrible.

By the way, he's autistic, and has NEVER apologized for anything in his life. It's just not a realistic expectation for him and demanding one from him would just escalate a bad situation even further for no clear benefit.
Given that you've already said she's not like your other kids, maybe you should acknowledge that you can't parent her in the same way(?)

A few things:
When you say awaiting assessment and learning difficulties, do you suspect neurodiversity?

Even if not, look up strategies for parenting an autistic child. Imo, they are often useful strategies for all children.

Also, look up strategies for PDA. This might not be the diagnosis for your child, but the strategies might be useful anyway.

There's a book called "The explosive child" which I highly highly recommend.

Based on my own experience, you have inadvertently escalated the situation in several ways:

• You need to head things off before they happen by flagging things more in advance. E.g. explanation of who pushes the shopping trolley and for how long before any of them have started pushing.

• Your punishment needs to be for the "crime" itself. Eg, misbehaving in a supermarket is punished by not being allowed to go to the supermarket next time, with a reminder as to why. Hitting someone with a stick during training equals you can't go to training next time.

As a previous poster has just written above, natural consequences rather than punishments are the way to go. Some of the messages they've written are really good.

These are 8, 10 and an even older boy.

I can’t believe they’re even bothered about trollies. You could leave the older two at home and just take your younger one for a bit of 1-2-1

She sounds exactly like my children. They are autistic with a Pathological demand avoidance profile. The talk of unfairness and that everybody hates her is a massive red flag for me because that's exactly what my children are like. Also well... really everything you've written to be honest.

Have a look at the PDA society website. If there's a chance she might be, punishments and sanctions Do. Not. Work. A low demand approach is what's usually recommended, and it's worked miracles for our household. Even if she is not autistic/PDA, your current approach doesn't seem to be working so it would be worth having a look and see if any part of that could be adapted to fit your lifestyle to help her to remain under threshold because at the moment it seems like she is constantly on the edge of a meltdown and that's no way to live for any of you.

With the thing about pushing the trolley, I would have said to her and her brother before you even got the trolley that X would push the trolley until the end of the bread aisle and then Y could take over. Set the expectation before she's had a chance to decide that it's unfair. Then removing the trolley pushing from her in response to her being angry about it seems punitive and unfair. Isn't she allowed to be upset about stuff that she thinks is unfair? Why not? She can learn to channel that energy constructively but you need to model it.

Going to the supermarket at 9:00 p.m. after going to the cinema and presumably after a full day at school was a bit of a crazy idea to be honest. That was never going to end well, and if it really must be done then you need to accept that might be more than what your child is able to cope with (even if she's neurotypical!) and that a meltdown might ensue.

I think that withdrawing her pony and competing if it's something that she enjoys is a mistake. Saying she can't compete because she got overwhelmed the the supermarket is completely illogical and punitive - again even if she's neurotypical it makes no sense. Animals are a great regulator. It could also be a really good chance for you to bond with her and if she does well at the competition then it might give her a little self-esteem boost. Also what's the point in using a punishment at the weekend for something that happened 2 days ago? What does that teach her? that redemption isn't possible so that she might as well carry on as she has been? because now she's angry as well as feeling hard done by so her behavior will continue to escalate because you continue to escalate the punishments on top.

Sometimes what a child needs is a chance to talk it through, apologize, acknowledge and reset. It's not her fault that your life is very hard. Basically being a single parent yet still being in a relationship with someone who's been checked out, and all the complications at that involves as well. She probably doesn't know whether she's coming or going, but I expect that she does know that her home life is not the same as her friends who have two involved parents.

My mum gave me just one-piece of parenting advice: never threaten anything you are not prepared to carry out.

It sounds as though DD has difficulty with remembering things long term (she appears to have forgotten that her friend couldn't come today and why). So any punishment needs to be immediate and proportionate, not "you have to behave well for the next week or....". That's too big of an ask.

When she hit her sister with a stick, I would have said "no story tonight", if stories are something she enjoys. It's quick, clean, sorted, and not hanging over her head. She also doesn't get to earn it back (because she did the hitting so she gets the consequence). It sounds to me like you are a bit reluctant to be the bad guy or disciplinarian so you are using longer term threats with the hope she will steer herself better, but for whatever reason, she can't. Earning things back is too complicated for some children, unless it's part of a visual system (eg tokens in a jar or something). Now she has something she did last week and has more or less forgotten how and why it came about, as part of a reason why she now has a really big deal of an exclusion not being allowed to ride but having to watch her sister riding.

Just keep any response to bad behaviour smaller and more immediate, get it over and done with, assure her it's now dealt with and forgiven, and let her start afresh next day.

Gosh this post made me very sad, you clearly have a little girl (let’s not forget that’s what she is) who’s feeling very overwhelmed and upset. Like PP said, you need to work with her, not against her and stop the arbitrary consequences, I’m not surprised she thinks you don’t like her. You need to step up here and actually parent instead of just removing treats to try and exert authority.

The hitting is completely unacceptable and you were right to tell her off, I’d have followed that up by explaining if she can’t be trusted to behave appropriately then she won’t be able to participate in the sport (no need to reference the competition) until she’s proven she can not be violent, BUT I’d also be trying to understand what drove the hitting, you said it’s perceived criticism and that sounds very hard for a child who’s already being held back at school, you need to help her understand the emotion and find and alternative, i.e. “I understand it makes you angry when sister says x and makes you feel y but hitting is not acceptable in any circumstances, we all feel angry sometimes but we need to walk away and cool down etc. and then explain we don’t like it when people say that to us”. PARENT instead of just bollocking and removing privileges.

The trolley thing, you made a mountain out of a molehill. She was annoyed you’d let her brother push first and you then escalated the situation. She’s a child, it’s normal for them to lose their shit when they can’t manage their emotions, it’s YOUR job to teach them how.

You need to start working with your DD, lots of quality time, reinstate the competition and have a chat, tell her you love her etc. your kid is not going to magically be better behaved when they think the world and their parent is against them, I know, I’ve been that child.

You say sure could have additional needs. What you are dealing with sounds very like rejection sensitive dysphoria and impulse control issues. I was the same as a child and my 2 daughters are exactly the same but my 2 sons were not ( even though all 5 of us v likely have ADHD and autism ) . Adhd and autism presents very very diffidently in horns and women and honestly I’d be looking into that to see if anything fits. If I tell my youngest dd to hurry up she HUGELY takes this as an Inuit and will fly off the handle as she tastes it incredibly personally. Her thoughts are already disordered and the instructions I’ve given her swirling round her head like soup and she’s stressed . Is much more effective to say “time is catching up, we need to be in the car in 2 mins or we can’t go” . It can be very very hard, and my daughter masked SO well that I didn’t even see the adhd until she was 12-13 and it went seriously wrong in school. Got the ADHD treated and that basically unearthed a mass of autistic behaviour. She’s 17 now is doing well but is been a very rough few years.

OP you sound like a caring mother trying to manage with 3 active kids by yourself - you need to give yourself a mental break that you won’t always be perfect. If you put less pressure on yourself then you may find the kids feel it. You cannot always get it right. However, I do agree that she needs the sports activity to help with her esteem so if find a way for her to earn it back - maybe if she spends 15 minutes with you helping you with something nicely (and make it something not to bad so you sneak in bonding time as well) eg helping you fold the laundry whilst you chat or helping you make dinner.

@OhShutUpThomas my kids were over looked for referrals because they were “fine at home “ it was school they couldn’t cope with .
I wouldn’t be letting that be a decider .

I too wonder if she is playing up as she is yearning for her dad.
Maybe not solely but on top of what ever else she has going on.

Not earn it back. Give it back. The supermarket thing has nothing to do with the pony.

You start by asking how do you punish a child who doesn't get it? Why are you going for punishment? It's less energy to sit down and talk after the event than to get into complicated decisions about competitions. I wonder if competitive sports are the right thing for this child. It's an opportunity to fail, which I doubt is helpful for her. Your husband had an abusive childhood, has he talked much about it? He may have a different view of upbringing, without punishment maybe?