How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

Yes this, “I can see you are unhappy, what is making you feel that way?” Then listen, even if it sounds trivial or ridiculous to you. “So you’re feeling angry because Jenny got the bigger chocolate, yes it feels sad sometimes when people get things we want, but we have lots of things to look forward to today, next time maybe you could ask Jenny if you could have first pick of the chocolates” etc.

It was 9pm! Far too late for an 8-year-old who’s been at school all week to be dragged around the shops. Of course she was tired, dysregulated and unable to manage her emotions, she should have been at home winding down before bed, you set her up to fail! There is no right way to ‘punish’ a child, emotional dysregulation is normal in children and most of the time when it escalates out of control it is due to bad/ ineffective parenting, not a bad child.

You should be employing natural consequences for unacceptable behaviour, not punishments. What relevance does having an emotional meltdown in the shop have to competing in a sport which is good for her physical health and emotional well being? Why would you remove that? You need to employ natural consequences, the consequence to having a meltdown in response to not pushing the trolley first is that now she doesn’t get to push the trolley at all, not that she can’t compete in her sport. It sounds like her behaviour is a problem being caused by your punitive approach to parenting and complete lack of understanding about sensory systems, emotional regulation, appropriate consequences. You need to be reading up on how you can be a parent, not seeking for ways to make your DD a better child.

But it should have been the hitting with a stick ,there and then. She might have been less likely to misbehave later on then.

Ds was similar but also loved a particular sport, we sat him down and explained he would need to earn the right to go every week and any really unacceptable behaviour would result in him not going.

Try and let her earn it back if it’s tomorrow. Also moving down a year at school, house move and parents divorcing is a huge amount for a child to deal with. I don’t agree with the spoilt comments just because she’s got a pony.
She’s also around the age when children start to realise where they are academically. She’s potentially realising she’s behind her sister and naturally feeling competitive towards her.
Obviously deal with the bad behaviour but she maybe needs some extra support. School could probably suggest some things.

I feel for you OP. This sounds a very difficult situation. Do you have anyone supporting you ?
I am normally firmly in the "if you make a threat you need to follow through with it" camp because you see too many parents threatening consequences then when their children get upset they back down, which just teaches the kids that it's empty words and they can get their own way with a tantrum.
However, in this case I think I would be inclined to find a way to let your DD compete. I think the punishment is probably too harsh, and more importantly, too far away from the misbehaviour to be effective. Obviously she shouldn't have hit her sister and she did deserve to be punished but it needed to be then so she linked the two things clearly in her mind. You've said already that she's emotionally younger than her years so you need to approach things as if she is much younger. Whilst an adult or older child can grasp the "If you do X on Monday then Y will happen on Friday" or the concept of cumulative events leading to sanction, small children can't, they live in the moment. Consequences need to be pretty much immediate and then over and done with to be effective. It sounds like your DD is still in that stage.
Trying to see it from her point of view, hitting her sister is probably something that in her mind happened ages ago, if she even thinks of it at all. She won't connect it to what happens tomorrow. And not only are you removing the privilege of participating for her, her sister gets to ride her pony and she has to watch. That would be very tough for most children, never mind ones with potential additional needs who has had a lot of recent upheaval in her life and who, as you have already recognised, doesn't understand the link between what she did and what's happening. All she is going to see is her sister being favoured whilst she is being treated, in her mind, badly. It sounds like there is already a strained relationship between the two girls - this is not going to improve matters.
Your DC (and you) have already been through a lot in recent times by the sounds of things but your DD seems to be struggling most. I would think that the being kept down a year at school is having a big impact on her self esteem and she probably feels quite alone and possibly as if she's being punished. To have had one big move so recently and then be separated from the class she's settled into must be hard. One of my DS's friends had to redo a year because of time missed whilst undergoing cancer treatment in his teens and he says that that was one of the hardest parts about dealing with his illness. And he completely understood the rationale and agreed it was in his best interests long term. But he still struggled. I wouldn't underestimate the effect this may be having on your DD.
I'm not saying let her get away with murder. Obviously bad behaviour does have to be dealt with but I think that it might be helpful to press the reset button on this situation, let her ride and then look at some different strategies going forward. Punishment that isn't understood won't be effective and you risk her feeling increasingly alienated.
I hope things improve soon.

Nobody (and I mean nobody) is the perfect parent. The fact you’re reaching out for help and the fact you moved your kids away from that situation already shows that you’re a loving mother who’s trying to do the very best for her kids, which is a lot more than many.

You are not doing a bad job, you’ve just fallen into the classic “I must be the boss” mindset, which is natural when you’re struggling with 3 kids, but doesn’t actually help. You can absolutely improve this with some of the advice given here, and it will also make your life a lot easier if you’re not dealing with constant conflict 💐.

But why "not today" and why is visiting family relevant if you could have said honestly "Sorry, I asked Maisie's mum if she could come round today but she can't because they’re busy". (Or was it an added punishment?)

What country are you in? Keeping a child of that age down for a year is extremely unusual in England - in fact as a teacher with 25 years experience in English schools I’ve never heard of it. It’s extremely disruptive for them socially. How are you/the school planning for the future? Are you sure her secondary school won’t want to put her with her chronological peers, meaning she will skip a year, which could be educationally disastrous if she already struggles?

You don't sound like you are communicating clearly. You got a trolley not because you needed one but because DS wanted it, but when she wanted it, it was No. If you got the trolley and said to all of the children in advance we'll get the trolley but you will take turns in pushing it, you can do an aisle each at a time, she would've known what to expect. Again with the friend, just saying not today sounds like you are still cross with her if you'd said remember I did ask her mum but they're busy today, nevermind we've got auntie and uncle blah blah coming later that'll be nice, do you want to help me do x or are there other things you want to do before they get here?
Maybe she does have a learning difficulty, but you're not making any adaptations to how you deal with her despite suspecting that.
I also think pulling her out of competition and making her watch her sister ride her pony is a really strong punishment and feels cruel to be honest. If that was the consequence of hitting with a stick I'd almost understand it but not for getting upset about a trolley.

ETA given the trauma they've experienced over the last year, dad detaching, mum having a breakdown, moving cross country, it's no surprise she is acting out. Could you get some parenting support? Help to give you guidance when you've been through an incredibly difficult time too? I'd also lost the awful husband, but that's not up for debate

But if she is 8 with learning difficulties she will not process that whole sentence. "Another day" might work better though.
She sounds like my DD on her worst days. She's 11.
Yesterday she was hitting me and sulking during flute practice (often she's pleased at her playing during practice, and she always sees she's made progress after practice, it's not the flute that is the problem).
So I told her after a couple of these that if she didn't carry on she wouldn't have earned the right to choose the film last night (we always phrase it as "earning" something.) She hit me with her flute so that was it.
Massive, massive tantrum. DH and DS (who is the previous massive tantrum performer) went out for a walk. I shut myself in the bedroom. Reasoning and explaining doesn't work. They just think you're going to change your mind if you keep talking.

But that's how we got over this with DS. Plus he's on better meds for his ADHD.

Previously, and also at school, DD has got to avoid things with tears and tantrums. So they are effective.

But sympathy!

The point is it shoild have been for the stick incident.But good on you for stickbg to your guns.

Have you any family/friends nearby who you could talk to? It sounds like your dd isn't the only one who could do with a hug and a nice chat.

Also - it sounds like there are a lot of positives with your kids, it's great they have the skills and confidence to do pony competitions. You take time to do nice things with them. You are certainly not a failure.

I have read all of your posts and that all sounds incredibly hard for you. I have no advice but just wanted to post in sympathy.

Please try not to focus on the replies where they clearly haven’t read all your posts and are just pulling you apart. You can ignore them, they’re not here to help.

Did you tell her this, or did you just say 'not to day'? You say that your husband is not the point of the thread, but I suspect having a 'checked out' parent is a big factor. Children pick up on relationship problems. I'm surprised the other two aren't acting out as well - perhaps they are but in other ways. If daughter is potentially ND, you will need to try other methods of getting through to her.

The fact that you're here asking for help shows you're a great mum. If you weren't, you wouldn't care.

@OhShutUpThomas, I'm sorry, this sounds really tough. My daughter is still very young, but have taught Year 5 and 6 for over 10 years, so I have a good understanding of the age group.

One thing that struck me is that your other children sound like they are a bit immature, and perhaps you need to start working on that. You say your 8 year old is the youngest and her sister is 10- is your son even older? I can't imagine any child of 10 or older giving a shit about pushing a trolley. Your son could have been told that, no, you didn't need a trolley because you were only popping in for a couple of things.

Your older two are definitely old enough to be told that, sometimes, the youngest gets priority because she's young enough to care about certain things (like pushing trolleys) and they're not. Generally, kids want to pretend they're more mature than they are, so being told that only young children care about certain things might make them pretend they don't care. Try: "Look, your sister wants to push the trolley because it makes her feel more grown-up. You don't need to do it, because you ARE grown-up."

In terms of "punishments", I think immediate consequences- NOT necessarily punishments- are much more effective than future ones. So when she hit her sister with a stick, as soon as you got home, a long conversation about how dangerous and unacceptable her behaviour was, followed by a sincere apology to her sister, would have been a good idea. If she refused to apologise, THEN a more punishment-style consequence- e.g. no TV this evening- would have been the next step.

I would maybe give her the opportunity to earn back her participation in the competition. Maybe she has to earn 5 stars, and each star will come from either excellent behaviour for a day or specific chores, e.g. tidying her room?

And obviously, any time she behaves well, massively praise her. Literally, look for the teeniest, tiniest excuse to praise her and make a big fuss of how wonderful she is.

Agreed - there and then. When aged 6 my son locked his cousin in a dark cellar as a joke - he told me within a few minutes and we released her but hd knew she was upset. Immediately we went home, I took his particular favourite lego into a locked cupboard and he had to earn it back with niceness to us all but esp his cousin. He knew immediately and quickly what he’d done wrong with a prompt consequence, and a clear pathway to improvement and reward. Timng is everything, along with clear communication. Sometimes you don’t have the energy - in which case don’t start something you can’t follow through. You’re under a lot of pressure, it’s tough, bd kind to yourself as your instincts are all right, you’ll get through this xx

I'm sure someone's already recommended it, but the book The Explosive Child is worth a read.

Ds was similar but also loved a particular sport, we sat him down and explained he would need to earn the right to go every week and any really unacceptable behaviour would result in him not going.

@DameDiazepamTheDramaQueen I love this! It frames the activity as a reward for good behaviour, rather than not going as a punishment for bad behaviour.

Hold the line and follow through. Dont let her have treats today. Eg tv - it’s a punishment. Hold the line. Discipline is hard and they push and push and push.

Her poor sister. Getting physically assaulted with a stick is way worse that getting shouted and stamped at although both are bad. She wouldn't be doing this sport at the weekend after her behaviour towards her sister and I'm surprised that the organisers are allowing her to continue.

Please take more action against her for assaulting her sister, my mum used to het this behaviour go on towards me from my sibling and I ended up living on edge constantly as a child and having issues as an adult surrounding violence in relationships.

Can't take the credit for it, it was my sister who suggested it and she didn't even have kids at that point but she's a wise bird 😂

‘Punishments’ never worked with one of ours, we worked with a paediatric consultant because of other quirks as well and she said it was pointless trying to heap on consequences when a child is so heightened and in flight/fight mode.
His siblings were fine for the most part so I couldn’t work out what I had done wrong.
Once we talked it through it made total sense to me so I stopped doing the ‘because of this you can’t do that’ or ‘well if you don’t do this then you won’t be able to do that’
Instead of doing that I give my clear expectations at the start of the day, so in your case instead of saying about the trolley thing in the car I would have laid out the plan in the morning ie ‘first we are going to go shopping, you can share pushing the trolley would you like to push it first or second’ if things were already going a little wonky no one would have been pushing the trolley bar me.
The most used phrase in the house is ‘stop parenting your siblings’ I don’t need any of them to tell the others to hurry up or to do this or that because that always starts a row. There is no reason why your other child should be telling her siblings to hurry up, instead set up the one who struggles for success. Start getting her ready abit earlier, get her to get her things ready the evening before etc
It’s very easy to slip into a pattern of one child being easier and then you get frustrated with the one that ‘just doesn’t get it’. When in fact they do, they just need to be parented in a different way.
I remember the consultant asking why did it matter if they didn’t do X,y and z and my reply was because then they would fall behind, or get into trouble etc she advised me to pick my battles, let the small stuff go and relax.
We still have days when it all goes a little awry and there are days when I think we’re going backwards again but actually by giving clear expectations before hand, allowing down time and less pressure were for the most part in a good place.

Parent to a child with adhd & autism and have worked with SEN children for 10 years.

You need to use natural consequences - if a consequence is too far removed from an action it doesn't make any sense to neurodiverse brains. They simply cannot process the action = the consequence and will therefore act like they've done nothing wrong.

You also need to set boundaries in advance - with the trolley situation...if you don't need a trolley do not get a trolley. All of your children are old enough to understand that bread and milk do not require a trolley, giving in to your son created the issue with your daughter.
Before you even get out of the car you state your expectations to all of the children "we are going into Tesco, we will not be getting a trolley as we only need bread and milk. You are all to stay with me, if you run off I will have to hold your hand. If you do not listen I will have to take you back to the car and we will have no bread for toast and no milk for cereal in the morning"
Then stick to it if they don't listen you leave without it and they'll have to go back in the morning. Yes that will be annoying for a week or so but they will all catch on very quickly at their ages that you have simply stopped allowing them to misbehave.

Natural consequences will be beneficial to all of your children but they would massively improve things for a ND child. Please look them up because "consequences" can also be very positive "if we get this housework done by x o'clock we'll be able to go swimming/to the park etc".

It's all about communicating clearly and in advance giving them time to process and understand the instruction you have given.

You've totally got this, just put in a couple of weeks of mindful, considered action and things will get a hell of a lot easier than they are now. Sending strength to survive this and love, as we all deserve love.

Send strength to Siri

@DarkwingDuk I'm assuming this was a typo but it really made me laugh!

Honestly op. At 9pm on a Friday night after a trip to the cinema, you took three children to the supermarket. It was a recipe for disaster.

Perhaps instead of punishing there need to be firm boundaries, an appreciation of sensory overload and an understanding of unconditional love.

I know it isn't easy and mine could be vile but boundaries and routine, with love, go a long way. Also if she has learning disabilities she may need different expectations compared to the others and the others need to be clear about that.