How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

Thank you, this is so helpful 💐

Look up RSD and PDA, I think this may help explain her behaviour and you can plan your strategies taking this into account.
I think you should keep trying to communicate with her especially when she doesn’t seem to understand what she’s done wrong. Go to her room and have a long calm chat about suitable behaviour and how she made you feel and your reasons for giving the punishment. Rinse and repeat every time. You’re doing well sticking to your guns with regards to the competition. It is so difficult to pick your battles when a child displays this behaviour but you sound like you’re doing great!

Yep I was thinking that - DS8 would be in a foul mood if he was still up and outside doing shopping at 9pm, and then in a foul mood the next day due to lack of sleep. I would expect a tantrum in that situation unfortunately, DS’s moods are very dependent on him not being over-tired.

He also does not seem to “get” that when he is in trouble he needs to stop digging in and start apologising. I have literally spelled it out to him on more than one occasion.

He also can’t seem to separate “this is the reason I did this” and “this does not excuse me doing this”. So yes, he had a tantrum because of something legitimately frustrating, but that doesn’t mean he is excused for kicking the dustbin over mid-tantrum. Work in progress I’m afraid!

This is true. They have nothing to do with each other and I feel it was a harsh punishment for something that happened in the supermarket but I can understand why you did it. You were frustrated and you were tired. I would sit her down and explain that to her. Don’t just say it’s okay you can go to your show because then she will think she won. (for want of a better term) but a child friendly conversation explaining what happened while you weren’t happy why her behaviour was not acceptable but while you have changed your mind also is okay. It also also gives her the message that even adults can get things wrong, that we can make mistakes, but it shows her that you can admit that and that you can reflect on it and have reasoning., these are all very valuable lessons too.

I think there is a lot more going on for all of them. The ultra competitiveness, I suspect your younger DD can’t emotionally self-regulate.

I would highly highly recommend reading “How to listen so kids will talk, talk so kids will listen.” And then their next book “Siblings without rivalry”.

You need your DC to be a team and you need to be open that although DD is 8 she’s not like your typical 8 year old and they need compassion. There is lots in that book about eliminating jealousy/competitiveness etc.

Your DD probably needs a lot of work around social stories and labelling emotions.

”I can tell you are angry that friend can’t come over today, tell me about it”.

Your DC should be brainstorming with you - “You can’t all have a trolley so what’s the solution”

All that type of thing.

It sounds incredibly tough.

I think you need a get rid of the idea of " earning it back"

If she is good enough to be competing then doing so will be something she is good at yes? And at the moment, she doesn't feel good at anything? So it will help her.

Can you spend some 1 on 1 time with- do a bit of colouring or maybe you can talk while you're grooming a horse or something...say to her " it all got a bit heated in the shop last night didn't it? I felt....xyz. How did you feel?" Give her a chance to calmly talk about what happened .

I have an autistic child my parenting had to change drastically as he didn’t respond to usual parenting techniques. A lot of it is managing his environment, so not expecting more than he is capable of, having set routines and boundaries in place . Prempting issues that may arise, spotting signs he is getting overwhelmed and distracting/ offering a sensory break to him.

I have let a lot of small stuff go so I’m not on at him all the time. I do discipline for big things hitting for example. I will pick something that has meaning (screen time) but I keep it small like half hour loss. If you go too big you are prolonging the process and she is likely to get frustrated and not see the incentive to behave. I also give him opportunities to win time back with good behaviour.

It's easy to say with hindsight and not being involved in the situation but the trolley wasn't needed for what should have been a quick trip for bread and milk - DS was allowed it just for fun because he wanted it, why not tell him no? Because if you then say the girls can't have a trolley or a turn with the trolley you have an unfair situation where only he is having "fun".

In your dd's life there is a lot that is unfair, it sounds like the realisation of friends moving up a year and her staying behind is just starting to sink in. And long term that will probably be good but right now it's really hard.

She may just need a bit of nice time with you, getting a milkshake or similar, and just talking about everything

I've no experience so no advice, but I do think some of the positive suggestions on here hopefully might help. You sound exhausted and fed up so sending a big hug x 💐

I think punishing people is outdated, it's all a bit if you do this horrible thing then I'll do a horrible thing to you and nobody's happy.
For physical violence with my children, 2 of whom are grown ups with autism now, I would take her out of the situation until it's calmed down and then explain how hurting someone is unnaceptable and the fact that shes done this is a serious thing. I would explain in a quiet voice throwing some funny bits in, to keep her engaged and listening. Keep it factual hurting someone is assault can get in serious trouble. Cause real damage sister could have ended up in hospital. Then I would explain that I'm not saying it to scare them just that I want them to be aware of what their actions could lead to and why we don't do this. In your situation I would have this conversation and then let her compete tomorrow.
The supermarket thing was a mess and tbh in that situation I would have just taken everyone home and stuck an order in.

It sounds like she is feeling isolated at the moment and could do from you demonstrating that you have her back.

Just do online shopping
Never cancel sports etc that are paid for
Listen to her she has gone thru big move and has absent dad
She is communicating
Get some support family therapy

Read "how to talk so kids willlisten"

I don’t think you should have withdrawn her from the competition as a punishment.
It’s something she’s good at and enjoys in a world where she is struggling. It’s hard for her to link it to her behaviour.
Punishments like this cause resentment and just make things worse.
I agree with others that it sounds like she doesn’t know how to regulate her emotions and needs some help with that, as well as her relationship with her sister.
Is she getting help with her school work? It’s not so much about attainment but boosting her self esteem and knowing what’s going on in school lessons.

Taking three children for a trolley supermarket shop at 9pm (after going to the cinema) is probably not the best call.

Is there no other option other than holding her back a year.
That is an absolutely horrible, horrible thing to do to a child and really should be an absolute last resort.

Dont underestimate how damaging It will be for her psychologically to beeft behind as peers go on. She will carry that with her the rest of her life

She cam understand amd I think she's getting her own way too much to compensate for her struggling at school. You punish her , then she earns it back is giving mixed messages.

You have a lot going on. I don’t believe in earning treats/activities back

you say something you need to stick to it

never threaten something that you don’t really want to cancel

saying all that. Going to cinema then shopping at 9pm for an 8yr is madness and on a school night

so kids are 8/10 and older boy? None of them need a trolley. I get it was for bread and milk but in future get shopping delivered if you can’t cope with 3 of them shopping or go at a better time

Agree. I didn’t punish my children. I talked to them once they had calmed down. It’s not easy and I had to do it as a single parent but the whole punishment thing just backfires and becomes incredibly complicated and damaging.

She is late August born.
She is 1-2 school years behind. Got 3/25 on her last maths check.
She is in a small school with 2 years in each class. Currently year 4 in 3/4 class.
She has no friends in year 4. She looks and acts like year 2/3.

I think that moving her into the year 5/6 class with no friends, totally left out, completely behind and probably needing 1-1, would be far more ‘horrible, horrible,’ than leaving her in year 4 for another year where she has friends, a kind teacher who knows her, and she can at least have a chance of catching up.

Do you think we haven’t given this loads of thought? There’s no need to stick the boot in.

I completely agree, it makes it a you vs them situation and a battle of wills. It’s hard being a child with limited control or autonomy, the arbitrary punishments just make it worse. I was very confused as a child, why did my parents keep removing significant things I liked over minor misbehaviours that came from the fact I was struggling to manage my emotions and nobody was helping or teaching me how.

What I used to do with my lot is tell them a lot about scenarios people posted about kids on here and ask them what consequences they’d give. It was very revealing. They were always super harsh and could really relate. It was helpful for them to understand behavior and consequences.

I was always talking about scenarios with the kids. Asking them what they thought, what they’d do, how they’d handle stuff. Long term consequences of actions. The ripple effect etc. They’re really good kids (now young adults) and rarely get into trouble because they have a much better idea of consequences than their contempories.

I read a book recommended on here called the entitlement trap. It’s a bit American but some interesting stuff in there. Also interesting to discuss with them.

Shopping we still divide and conquer. In and out in the shortest time possible. Everyone has jobs at home too. We divide and conquer everything. No idle hands allows everything to be done quicker and they’re learning how to do things properly all the time.

I grew up on a competition yard and it’s difficult for anyone to understand who hasn’t. You’ll have difficult passages to navigate ahead with that as it’s likely by 15 they’ll stop.

So in the current circumstances I’d talk about what she’s done but as if it’d happened to her (she got hit be a stick by some random) and what she’d expect to happen to the child who hit her. What she’d expect the mum to do and see if she manages to make the connection.

For the sulking I used to gently take the piss.

Well done for trying your hardest in difficult circumstances OP, it’s not easy and you clearly love your kids. Like others, I would suggest backing off from the idea of punishments, you don’t need to be in a power battle with your children. You don’t have to overpower them to show them who is boss.

Instead, you can take an approach of guidance and nurturing the good in them, but this will require planning in advance as others have said and probably reading a load of books. I found low demand parenting incredibly helpful, not just with my DC, but actually across-the-board with my relationships in general and highly recommend having a look at the principles of it

None of this is a small ask when you are trying to manage three kids and clearly feeling quite frazzled but when you start to see it working it’s incredible and definitely worth changing directions before you’re dealing with teenagers.

I’ve gone through a really profound shift in my approach to parenting over the last few years because of various similar issues, one really good takeaway I learned is don’t pour petrol on a fire. You have to be the calm one when they are disregulated, when they are angry it is not the time to try and escalate the situation. It flies in the face of much of what we’ve been told his parents and as you say, people will look at you and they will judge you so you just have to let go of caring about that. When she is having a meltdown, you don’t have to give consequences, I guess you think about safety first, and after that how to co-regulate whilst keeping the other kids occupied. I only have one so fuck knows how I would’ve managed that, but I think that probably is the task., And just taking stuff off your plate as much as possible.

You are obviously a caring mum who’s trying her best 💐. You’ve had some really good advice on this thread. Just remember this is a little girl who’s struggling and she needs parenting and teaching how to manage her emotions, not random punishments. It’s HARD at times, of course it is, but you’re the adult here, it’s your job to take a breath and manage your emotions first, so your daughter can learn to manage hers.

And for the sulking I would help her label her feeling as anger, to help her begin to recognise it and choose a different response . I wouldn’t mock it as this is inflammatory

I struggle because I had a complete mental breakdown last year. This was awful because I had all three kids throughout. My husband just couldn’t deal so ignored it and went away more. I don’t think I can ever forgive him for this.
I feel so sorry for these children. I have only ever tried my absolute best with everything but I’m only one person, I had been living with/next door to his abusive family for years and I just couldn’t take any more.
I am sure it has all been awful for the kids. I did my best and I got us out but I will never recover. I just try my best day to day but I don’t seem to be doing a great job.

Cinema and then shopping at 9pm with a tired child who has trouble regulating her emotions … something was bound to happen. So that’s on you a bit as you were setting her up to fail.

you need to link punishments to the act - so the whole hitting her sister with a stick at training might make it appropriate to punish her with the competition - shopping incident does not link to competition though.