How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

Look at PDA techniques, the PDA society website is good. I'm not saying your dd has this but the techniques work really well for lots of children imo.

Don't make demands, use declarative language.

be clear about what's happening and why, so the Tesco example set out at the very beginning that she can push the trolley at x point and what will be happening and what behaviour you want to see. Tesco also have sensory boxes now if that's something that might help.

punishments need to be immediate so a time out as soon as it happens. Don't take away the things that help keep her on an even keel or are good for her like sports, like you say she doesn't get it and it doesn't work anyway and these things probably help keep her regulated.

does she have appropriate support at school? Our home life calmed down by a million percent when my send child finally got the right support at school as they weren't bottling things up all day and exploding over nothing at home anymore,

I think some of the replies are quite hard on you @OhShutUpThomas

It’s so easy for us to comment and judge without really thinking about how YOU felt in the supermarket last night and about how YOU feel when things are constantly a struggle. The rising heartbeat, feeling of dread, here we go again. It’s horrible. You did your best.

I don’t have a great deal of advice due to her possibly having an LD diagnosis.

For me, sitting talking to my dc before we went out, explaining what will happen and what I expect always helped when we were going through tricky stages. In the car before arriving at places - explaining what will happen, how I expect them to behave and what the consequences will be if they don’t etc all worked well for us. But my DC don’t have any additional support needs.

That said you can do that for your other kids.

I believe in natural consequences not random punishments.

So taking away a much anticipated competition because she had a tantrum in Tesco makes absolutely so sense to her whether she has additional needs or not. What could you have done instead?

Maybe recognised she was possibly tired and overwhelmed and needed to go home.

Not got a trolley in the first place just because her brother wanted it.

It feels like she’s being punished for having big feelings when she clearly struggles with expressing them in the ‘right’ way. As someone else said, behaviour is communication and we need to listen.

I wouldn’t take my neurodiverse child shopping at 9pm. I actually wouldn’t take any of my children shopping that late! It’s a recipe for disaster.

‘H works away and has checked out of parenting.’ This is huge and your children are going to be deeply impacted by this. It’s a form of parental abandonment and may be why she is so unsettled, along with not getting to stay with her peers and being held back a year.

I wouldn’t ever use competitions for a sport as a punishment.

Most ND need more explanations. So I’d have told y child why the friend couldn’t come, not today sounds so dismissive and actually doesn’t tell her you called and why the friend can’t come. I’d not be letting any of my children push the trolley.

Haven’t read all thread but good advice re strategies for Neurodivergent children, especially those with an autism PDA profile. I have one of those. It is challenging. I just wanted to say if it’s not too late I would let her go to the competition and just explain that that was the wrong consequence, you have thought about it and made the wrong decision. The two things are not linked. That doesn’t mean there won’t be consequences for her behaviour going forward and boundaries but this was not the right one. It actually helps to model imperfection, and let them see how to handle a mistaken wrong decision.

I share the general sentiment on this thread that the issues for your DD aren’t that you aren’t punishing her well enough. There is something going on for her and she needs a lot more support. I don’t mean that you shouldn’t tell her off when she behaves badly, but that isn’t what is going to get her behaving better.

She’s had a massive change to her life (as have you all) moving somewhere new, that is hugely stressful. Her father checking out will also have a big impact, don’t underestimate how a parent’s attitude can affect the way children feel about themselves. Her difficulties in school will probably add to that, and while repeating a year may well be the absolute best thing for her, she won’t be oblivious to the fact it means she’s doing less well than others her age. I think she needs a lot of understanding about just how stressful what she’s been through is. More kindness and time outs doing easy, fun stuff. I moved my kids at age and it took them 3 years to fully settle and we didn’t have the same challenges you do.

Given what you say about her relationship with and attitude to her sister, I would guess her sister is doing fine academically and has made friends in her year at the new school? Does she also do better at the sport they do together? I would suggest that she is jealous of her sister. It doesn’t matter if her sister is sweet and kind (and it’s highly unlikely and would actually be a bit worrying if everything she does to her sister is really sweet and kind), it’s going to smart if she isn’t doing so well at things and right in front of her all the time she’s at home in what should be her safe space there’s a shining beacon of how she’s failing. I know that isn’t how you see it, and it won’t be the full picture of how she sees it, but it sounds like that’s going on in her head a fair bit.

A therapist might be good, though I think they can be quite hit and miss. But I would suggest more than that she needs a lot of one on one time and plenty of time away from her sister doing things that neither her sister nor her brother do. This may be hard with three children and a checked out partner, but finding a way to give your kids space is likely o be crucially for getting through.

And while you’re at it, OP, be kind to yourself. You’ve also had a hugely stressful time with a partner who’s checked out. Even if you like most of your new location and can see how it’s going to be better in the long run, there are probably things you miss and stuff that’s hard. It’s not easy on you either and recognising that, feeling good about all the things you do do to support your whole family, enjoying the things you love in your current situation, and giving yourself the grace to fail, pick up, and try to do better without recrimination will help make things better for you too.

@OhShutUpThomas you are doing a brilliant job under very difficult circumstances.

All of the posters on here have made mistakes as a parent so don’t get upset by some of the more sanctimonious commentators. Their thoughts are irrelevant.

You’ve had some really helpful posts so focus on those and consider re-posting on the Special Needs boards for much more practical support and advice.

Here’s a hug and flowers from me to another mum trying hard to do her best. It will be ok. <<hugs>> 💐

She wants attention even if it's negative. My DD was similar at that age. Anything for an argument. Don't engage with the bad behaviour other than repeating boundaries and removing her from the situation if she's hurting herself or others. Give lots of positive attention when she does positive things.that way she knows that's how to get the attention. If you make fighting over the negatives a thing that's what she will keep coming back to.

You are doing your best and in difficult circumstances. You've accepted your husband as he is but that has put you in a situation where you are finding it exceedingly hard to cope. Money doesn't seem to be much of an issue so could you buy in a bit more support? A cleaner and on line groceries, but also someone like an au pair or part time nanny/childminder in the house? I know words like nanny are usually for younger children but I hope you get my drift!

You have to parent multiple children (ie more than 2) differently. I have 5. No one apart from me pushes the trolley. Oldest child sits in the front of the car. I stop over excited behaviour before it tips into bad behaviour. My husband tries to let everyone have their turn and there is endless conflict. I find it exhausting just watching him whereas they know where they are with me so it’s easy (easier!). She sounds ND. I think the anger management becomes really apparent around 8. I would work on that rather than punishment for behaviour. If she is adhd for example she may not be able to see what she has done wrong and will perceive that she has been slighted / everyone else is favoured rather than taking any responsibility. And to be honest if they are hard work that sort of becomes true. I have a 10 year old that is impossible at times. I try not to engage in the heat of the moment but instead focus on helping him put strategies in place to manage his high running emotions. Obviously you have to engage if they are hitting each other though. Does she have solid friendships?

You sound like you have been through a wringer. I don’t have amazing advice for you, other than to be kind to yourself.

I also have kids who compete and that on its own causes huge amounts of stress. PO said don’t make a threat you aren’t prepared to see through, I have come close many times to threatening to not attend competitions, training etc.

One of my kids might be on the spectrum, I have always warned him about what is happening, transitions etc, as this seems to help him. If punishments consistently don’t work then give another approach a try.

I often intend to shop online and then don’t achieve it, but it does reduce the need to trail the kids around the shops. Mine are all older, and I can leave them while I shop, but the youngest normally helps. Sometimes it is better to pay more ata small shop (if you can) to reduce the stress.

But please, be kind to yourself, and acknowledge how well you have done to move away from the overbearing family.

And this.

If she finds it difficult to understand actions and consequences, this whole earning back/"any more bad behaviour" thing is probably too confusing for her. Dangerous behaviour, consequence. And then you just weather her response. Don't resent or further punish her for being upset about the consequence, she can't help that. Stay calm, explain as many times as you need to.

I think you're doing the right thing focussing on more major issues. Sulky is not a behaviour issue, it's a mood. If she's feeling upset or sad, you sympathise. If she hits someone or runs away and endangers herself, there is a consequence. Even if she couldn't help it, even if she was upset. She may not learn in the way other children would, but all the more reason to keep that drip feed going that every time you hurt someone, consequence.

Hugs from here too!
Parenting is tough - and we learn on the job as there is no real training.
It does get better.

There are days where you can get things right.

These are not every-day events though.
I'd say that you should think through a list of them before going to bed each night. Look at what you did well and give yourself some praise. Be proud!

There are other days where 'everyone fed and nobody dead' - was the very best that could be expected and took you the the edge of coping.
(Even Mary Poppins had such days - I'm sure.)
Don't dwell on these.

Learn if there is something to be learnt - or just wipe the slate and start a new day in the morning.

Sounds like you are a good parent.

You use the techniques and tools that seem best - and when they don't seem to be working, you re-assess. You respond to the actual needs of your children - and see why (at times) they might become little demons for a while.

Behaving well all the time is a strain for anyone.
You need to have the occasional 'get out of jail free' card given.

These (imagined or real cards) are needed at:
Night-times - Times after lovely treats (yup - those are often trigger-points) - Times after illness - Times after changes...

Supermarkets are bad places!

They are carefully designed to trigger us to buy thoughtlessly. Colours/sounds/arrangements are all set-up to excite and distract the rational unemotional side of us.
(Much money and time has been spent developing this)

They work on adult shoppers... and have huge effects on children. (Just look around at all the little humans who go wild in there).

personally I wouldn’t have used the threat of withdrawing sport as a punishment.

i have 3 with adhd and autism and my youngest aged 8 was the same as your dd. She played football, was very passionate about it and it truly was her outlet, physical exercise really did help her. No matter what she did in the week I never took that Saturday morning away from her and it was a time that we both got on.

Honestly you have to change the way you parent and punish with challenging dc, I also found that routine for her, even at the age of 8 was still important, I wouldn’t have gone shopping at that time either, could you have tried online delivery. Your dd might have had a sensory overload after being at the cinema and then having to trail round a supermarket afterwards. My youngest is 15 now and she can’t do things like this still, she gets frustrated and grumpy and I don’t blame her.

Also don’t let any of them push the trolley, just let it be you, no arguments over favouritism then lol

im truly a lone parent (widowed) and it’s bloody hard.

No, I mean natural consequences, that is what you would need to Google in order to get the correct results.

Also a natural consequence can very much be immediate "you've just hit your sister with a stick, this means you are not safe to be in that environment - therefore you need to miss the rest of the lesson and stand beside me" that's a natural consequence.

I agree with this

just let them all have a trolley and put items in each trolley. Minimise conflict as much as possible - there is no harm in that and they'll never know

My DS was like this at a similar age and I found a book called ‘calmer easier parenting’ (or something along those lines!) that really helped. The main thing was doing a lot of descriptive praise and was quite simple but it made an immediate difference compared to the harsher ‘firm rules and consequences’ stance I’d had before.

Interestingly it doesn’t work for my youngest child 🤷‍♀️ I just think different children can respond to different parenting styles so it’s worth trying new things.

Ok you are like my mum was, even down to the mental breakdown, she is now 84 and a lifelong alcoholic. My advice is apologise to your daughter for losing your own temper*. Say you’ll all make a fresh start. Now start really working on yourself. Have you, like my mum, got undiagnosed adhd or autism? It’s great you are on here seeking help. But like my mum, you are seeing issues with the children, especially one child. She is a child. You are the parent. I know it’s tough, but you need to stop, reflect, and focus on empathy and on educating yourself.

*this is not something my mum would ever have done, but boy it would have stopped me in my tracks. As a child, I would have probably have apologised in return, or simply felt listened to. It would also have been a way out of a crappy situation, a way for a new path to be forged. Look at what you want in life, or from your daughter, not what you don’t want, or what you dislike in her. She is 8.

You need to nip this behaviour in the bud NOW. You are the parent. She needs to have her privileges taken away; tablet, pocket money, games consoles, dolls, etc for a fortnight. Make sure you explain to her why. Tell her it's never acceptable to hit someone. Ever. Explain to her that in law, it's classed as assault which the police don't take kindly towards.

If you don't eradicate this behaviour now, your child could end up as a teenage tearaway. I've seen it before where children demonstrate unacceptable behaviour that goes on to be un-challenged. Two of my peers from school are currently serving time behind bars at the moment and I have to say, I think the parents were too relaxed around discipline. Now is the time to highlight boundaries OP, go for it. For your sake, your daughter's and societies as a whole and last but not least, the safety of other people's children. I wouldn't be happy if one of my children were assaulted by an un-ruly child.

Give yourself a break, you are doing the best you can.
Three children are hard without considerable learning difficulties, competitive siblings and a husband who is away a lot.
Lots of hugs for your children, celebrate the positives in the cinema outing and the hobbies. They are fed, loved and have great opportunities.

Some days just go badly but you need to keep the big picture in mind, this weekend will not make or break your family and do not define who you are as a mother.

Try to parent with fun, make things a funny game, your mood sets the tone so if you're stressed and curt and anticipating rows, they usually happen and then you beat yourself up for not doing better. Let the mistake go, forgive yourself.

The fact you didn’t even need the trolley - you’re making problems for yourself here you don’t need to have. You know they are hyper competitive and would all want to push the trolley. You know they have difficulty regulating emotions and will snap. You know they are out very late and over stimulated from cinema and you’re taking them round the supermarket.

The best action here is “no need for trolley, we just need two items and are leaving.” Then you go in and get back out quick to get them home. You are yourself introducing the thing for them to compete over.

Maybe it‘s best they also don’t play on the same team or in the same league for the same sport. Sounds like they do need some space from each other.

She’s clearly neurodivergent and the sooner you get her assessed the better. Im
goi g to go against the grain here, animals are therapeutic, so I wouldn’t deny her, her pony. Also she’s struggling academically, so for her this is the one area she feels equal to her peers!

Also your difficult marriage is clearly impacting on her despite what you think!

You says she is being assessed and it sounds to me like she has difficulty trying to control big emotions. So punishments in the way you describe won’t work. I think it might be about trying to help her understand her emotions and find ways to help her try regulate them. I don’t know if it’s true and it may not be relevant to your child but I read that by the time an adhd child is 12, they have received 20,000 more negative feedback than their peers. The level of frustration and feeling bad about themselves because they are being told they are always getting things ‘wrong’ is huge. It doesn’t mean the kids get away with hitting others with sticks but it means a different way of dealing with challenging behaviour is needed. I am only saying what I have read and I don’t know the best way to deal with things but maybe trying to anticipate situations that may lead to meltdown eg being tired, hungry etc. not blaming you for going to the shop late but I can see how that might have contributed to things. Good luck.

Oh bless you OP! You've had such a rough ride and are clearly a lovely, caring mum. Sometimes we simply can't avoid getting things 'wrong' and kids don't come with instructions, especially those who may be ND. Please don't beat yourself up, you're trying your best and those children know how much you love them, even if they can't express that. I made LOADS of mistakes when my kids were small and I had a much easier time of it than you. Keep breathing and give yourself a much needed hug 🤗💐