How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

@OhShutUpThomas take a look at this.
https://images.app.goo.gl/53NbyT2n9VGMmpBC6
Not effective just for PDA but a different approach that can work will all types of needs. If you do have to use consequences it might be more effective if it relates directly to the incident rather than an indirect sanction.

These threads are always a mixture of "the best of Mumsnet" and "the worst of Mumsnet". It always blows my mind how people feel able to judge and berate an OP who is clearly at the end of their tether.

FWIW OP I know you don't want to go down the therapy route again, which I totally appreciate because it's exhausting work which I can see you don't have the energy or headspace for. BUT I think finding someone who can "just" listen and support you would help so much. Doesn't need to be about "fixing" you or dealing with your issues blah blah, but just someone to offload to who won't judge you. I have used a therapist for this when going through a difficult time with a difficult child and it really did help to be able to be angry/sad/frustrated/numb with someone else for a bit and then go back to normal life.

Sending hugs, sympathy and strength.

A natural consequence occurs whether you as parent do anything at all e.g. you hit your sister, your sister gets hurt.
You are correctly classing one set of consequences together but they are logical, not natural.

I’m sorry that there are so many smug, sanctimonious people on here OP, aren’t they lucky having perfect lives?
I don’t have any suggestions but just wanted to send you a hug and sympathy. So much of mothering is winging it, goodness knows how my DCs survived! I too have a husband who pretty much absolved himself of doing anything at all with the DCs. It’s bloody tough x

I’m guessing they’re going to a horse show, so it will be nothing to do with the organisers! Clearly you don’t understand a neurodivergent child! Sport is one area she can be on level terms with her peers! She’s already struggling at school, so her self confidence is zero!

You would hit a child? You’re vile and I’ve reported your post. If this is genuinely how you would treat a child, I sincerely hope you’re not a parent. The rest of your ‘advice’ is also shit.

Has this behaviour change happened recently or has it been like this for some time? As others have suggested these last few weeks of term are hellish. But there's a few things that you may want to look at if they are on a assessment waiting list.
Pathological Demand Avoidance PDA is often mistaken for bad or defiant behaviour and goes alongside autism. It is the nervous systems response to a demand and often things which we don't perceived as demands such as ',get dressed, brush your teeth, what do you want for dinner' are all considered demands. It's a can't not won't. Have a look at the website and see if it seems familiar.
www.pdasociety.org.uk/

I could almost have written the same - including the checked out husband and the ponies but not the learning disability though I have often wondered if she has ADHD because her behaviour escalated when she went to high school/ teen hormones which seems more common in girls. However, she does fine at school and at other peoples houses but can be very difficult at home. She’s 13 now with a 16yr old sister who is also frustrated that she seems to get away with things. I don’t think I’ve cracked it yet and your DD younger so both expectations and level of freedom will be less. I don’t think I have been consistent in enforcing rules at home, she is excellent at playing me because she knows I’ll give in some of the time. I have threatened no competition but she is often part of a team so I wouldn’t want to let them down so I stick with things I’ll follow through on like no friends over. I wonder if clear expectations that you can stick to consistently might help. This sounds really tough and some of the other suggestions have been far from helpful. My DD also blames me every time something goes wrong. Seriously though some strong words to your husband about helping back you up or a divorce might not be a bad idea - you sound like you’re carrying all this on your own anyway. This is the option I’m taking and it’s been such a relief. Big hugs to you.

Erm I am neurodivergent myself. Clearly you don't understand adequate parenting.

The summer is when all the horse shows take place.

Being "Neurodivergent" is not an excuse to assault people. You don't know what neurodivergency the child has, so I really don't know how you could assume the child "would not link" the punishments to their behaviour.

The law doesn't give a free pass for people to go around assaulting people because they have a "neurodivergent" diagnosis. We are all bound by the same law, all of us.

There is a huge problem with children not knowing/caring what constitutes as assault. A girl in my class was assaulted by a group of girls in the year above. Perhaps if their parents had taught them an understanding of the law, it wouldn't have happened.

In 2 years time, the child mentioned in the OP will be of the age of criminal responsibility (10 years) and liable for arrest if she continues to assault people. It's the parents' responsibility to ensure that she knows now that this sort of behaviour is not acceptable.

And again, "neurodivergent" is a broad term ranging from dyslexia right through to being non-verbal autistic. I don't know how you could use that as an excuse. A court of law would not see something such as a dyslexia or ADHD diagnosis as an excuse for assaulting someone. I've known people go to a young offenders' institute in spite of having an ADHD/Dyslexia diagnosis.

I agree with @BigFatBully about coming down like a tonne of bricks on the violence. She has to understand that, however much she might lose control, this is a line that she simply can't cross.

People have different ways of teaching this to children but personally with my 7yo I've been very open for a while with them about how any physical violence is an "assault", which is a crime, how adults are arrested and go to prison for this and how if anyone was ever to hit him or threaten him with violence, we would ring the police and report this and they would get into very serious trouble. And how it is especially unacceptable for adults to assault children and he needs to tell someone he trusts immediately if this happens. And the other side of this is that if he hits someone, he won't go to prison because he is a child, but he will be in very serious trouble and the police could still get involved if he seriously hurts someone or they consider him a danger to others.

While I would ignore a lot of the other behaviour and focus on building emotional connections and making her feel secure, the hitting her sister with a stick-type incident is the hill I would die on. This is the one that merits a hard line and some scare tactics.

My son was like this - he never saw that he had done anything wrong and never apologised. I don't really have an answer for you, but I spent countless hours explaining things to him ( he is highly intelligent) .

Oh absolutely, we must also teach our children that if anyone assaults them that it's unacceptable and a crime. I wish I knew this when I was at school. I wish I could go back to those days with my knowledge as an adult and be able to say "this is not right. this is not acceptable".

If it was literally bread and milk, and I had fractious competitive kids (my eldest were similar) I would have parked at a garage and sent the eldest in for bread, milk and a packet of haribo which will only be distributed if nobody moans or grumbles while eldest is in the shop. Or I might have gone home and got a "whoosh" delivery from Tesco, or made pancakes in the morning with the milk. It's a while ago now but I certainly tried to avoid taking all mine in the supermarket at once, unless they each had a short shopping list to follow.

Look into PDA. Some of this sounds like an overwhelming drive for autonomy which is a feature of PDA. Also, inability to accept criticism or accept responsibility. If she is PDA, no amount of incentive or punishment will make a blind bit of difference.

Hello Op. im sorry youve had so many horrid replies. The issue is not trollies or shopping trips here as we all know.
im a sole parent of pre teens too and the vying for my attention coupled with life is exhausting!

personally, in the short term, I’d sit on the floor with them all and say “I loved it when we all went to the cinema yesterday, it was so nice to all have fun together and wasn’t the film funny etc, but the way the evening ended in the shop made me really sad. But that was yesterday and we were all tired. It’s a new day, so I’m going to suggest we all start again. If everyone promises to try and be calm and kind today, then you can all do the competitions. But I expect polite, friendly behaviour (outline whatever) and if that doesn’t happen that person will have to have time out waiting with me.

then all get ready, take lots of snacks and water so no one is hungry or thirsty and just take it one half day at a time. Don’t plan anything other than the competition and when you get back give everyone lots of down time to just chill. Ignore any jobs in the house and just sit and chill with them too.

tell them often today how lovely it is to see them happy / be with them / what a nice day youve had.

it won’t fix the long term but it might make today a nice day and that will help you all. That’s what I do anyway. Xxx

Re reading the Op again I can see that consistency is also an issue

DD8 hit her sister with a stick-immediate cancellation of competition not if you misbehave you won't go
Just done-you aren't going full stop

Fighting over trollies ( age 8/10!)
No to the endless negotiation - no one pushes it
I understand Op is run ragged and exhausted but this hoping the DC will make the decision for her so she's not the bad guy doesn't work.

Op seems immensely concerned about her DC not liking her and they are manipulating as a result.

Before I get a flaming, I have sympathy for Op but what she's doing isn't working

Absolute rubbish. perhaps with an overtired toddler, but an 8 year old should be more than old enough to behave for a few minutes in a shop, and not pick fights over ridicule things like a trolley. These kids sound like they are still in nursery!

Yes, but OP has said 8 year old is 1-2 years “behind” her peers. I don’t think anyone has been mean or sanctimonious on this thread. People have different views and I think many people, myself included have had similar issues and now children are much older have the benefit of long term hindsight.

I like your style.

DH and I were once staying at a friends. She had 3 little girls aged about 3, 6 and 7. We had no kids yet.

Early in the morning, through the thin wall, we heard the eldest admonishing her two younger sisters "be quiet or I'll get @Needlenardlenoo to tell you off!'

Some extremely judgmental comments on this thread! So sorry OP you asked for help and you're getting attacked.... And for the record, I've also taken my kids shopping in the evening too so ignore the haters!
My eldest is autistic and I realised early on that she didn't understand that sometimes actions have consequences and that she didn't respond the same way other children did. She wasn't diagnosed with Autism till she was 11 and until she was 9 she was an only child so I had no other children to compare behaviours with.
For my DD what worked was sitting her down, explaining exactly why it wasn't ok to behave in certain ways, and that if she did behave this way, then there would be a consequence - eg no tv for a few days. There was also the opportunity to get back watching tv with good behaviour.
But as I said, she was my only child then and I had more time to invest. Not so when I had other children and was stressed, frazzled and exhausted so I get that this isn't always practical!
You say you're waiting for her to be assessed, are there any local services you can contact for some advice? Sometimes the council can put you in touch with kids services but there's are few and far between these days. You also need support. They don't come with a handbook and it seems to me that you're absolutely doing your very best but it's hard when a child needs a different approach.
I think figuring out the best way to explain things to her and realising that she processes situations differently to other children is the key here. You know your daughter better than anyone so ignore everyone giving their opinion of you and your parenting.
Let her know how loved she is- that's always the most important thing and as long as she knows that she'll be ok. But she also needs to know that certain behaviours aren't acceptable and that there are boundaries.
Good luck.

Just stop it all of you with the recriminations of stopping to get milk on the way home from a cinema trip. Are you all so perfect that you've never run out of something, You are all so fucking unbelievable

I agree, @Purplebunnie - it is easy to have 20:20 hindsight and say the OP should have done X or Y, or shouldn’t have done Z - that’s not what she needs right now.