How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

You've already had loads of replies so this is probably superfluous but I'm going to say it anyway because as the mother of a child who had some pretty extreme and hard to deal with reactions around that age I feel your pain, but also because I did at the time get some helpful input from a therapist and wanted to pass it on. Basically I was focused on my kid's behaviour being an overreaction, she gave me this little kind of worksheet to have him complete after an 'episode' - obviously not immediately, once tempers had calmed. She'd drawn little thought bubbles, with a question in each one. I don't remember them all but there was definitely 'what happened', 'how did you feel' and 'what did you do', as well as a kind of thermometer to indicate strength of feeling. In the end, we only used it once because that was enough for me to realise that the issue was not in what he was doing, but in what he was feeling and how he was interpreting the situation. In the context of his massive emotional reaction and his perception of the gravity of the situation, his behaviour was actually pretty coherent, if not an under reaction. It allowed me to reframe my own behaviour to accomodate this, and the problem disappeared pretty quickly. Around the same time, a very wise friend said to me that one of our roles as parents is to be a kind of filter for their big feelings, until they can manage to deal with them themselves, which was enormously helpful because I realised I felt a kind of social guilt about having a child who wasn't behaving the way he 'should'. Incidentally I thought for a long time that he probably had some level of neurodiversity, but either that's not the case or he's got really good at masking.
Also, sibling rivalry was (and is) a massive issue, I read a good book by the authors of 'How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk', which may well be called 'sibling rivalry'. And I also relate to the useless father element, it's shitty to have to deal with these things without someone to share the load.
And last but not least, this too shall pass! I promise.

Thanks for the above suggestions.

My DD9 sounds similar and is also awaiting ASD assessment. What has worked well for us is writing together a list of 'house' rules such as 'no hitting', 'no talking back' etc....then a clear consequence if rules are broken. It sounds a bit draconian, but our DD benefits from this clarity. We also have a written daily schedule. She gets easily overwhelmed with a lot of verbal explanations, so we try not to over explain things shen she is upset, going into the reasons etc.

You also don't have to wait for an assessment to start using techniques for ND families. Lots of people with lived experience here can see the signs in your family, so if you have the headspace, you could start implementing changes now with the knowledge that's what it could be - you don't need to wait for that piece of paper to tell you. It's useful for so many reasons to have a diagnosis but you'll still be waiting a long time for a diagnosis so start living as if you are and you'll already be 10 steps ahead . If it turns out neither of you are diagnosed, well at least the low demand/nd friendly approaches might help. It can't hurt?

Yes I agree there. No techniques used for ND kids would harm and even if they aren't diagnosed - if they help then that's a result!

Id minimise transitions (as in doing one thing THEN another thing)

Try not "just popping" for a few weeks to see if it makes a difference as so often as it often is a bigger deal to overwhelmed kids than it would seem. Build necessary trips into a plan that's clear in advance to everyone..

Reduce demands. On everyone. Make life easier where you can.

Id echo anything by Ross Green is fantastic ( there's some good articles online if you don't fancy a book)

And the psychologist Dr Naomi Fisher has some good content (some geared to those struggling with school but in general her parenting seminars/books /advice is good and she specialises in trauma as well as ND).

For understanding ND I love neuro wilde. She has little visual cartoons that are easily accessible and I use them in my teaching.

I didn't say don't praise them! You said treat them for good behaviour. Read all of my reply. Thank you and I love you is what i said! Also, life as an adult doesn't always get praise for every single thing you do. You're raising a monster with your attitude. Constantly validating kids gives them an inflated sense of self if it's for every little thing they do. The fact that you called me a monster because I didn't agree with you, shows more about you than me.

Also I didn't say never reward them. You just twisted my words!

You've totally misunderstood what I was saying.

If you say so

I don't understand this dynamic at all. You're commenting on things I didn't actually say. The childish 'if you say so' thing is so weird.

We can have different opinions on this. I didn't twist your words. You said that "good behaviour should not be rewarded". Anyone reading can expand the quotes to see that.

You also said to say thank you and I love you, but not in response to behaviour, just generally.

I posted academic research that says catching your children in good behaviour with praise five times a day has a positive impact.

These are the facts of what we both posted. For the OP's benefit, I think the catching good behaviour methodology might work wonders.

I am not commenting on your parenting because I don't know you and I don't know your children (if you have them) or what their behaviour says about your parenting.

I commented on your post which was monstrous in my opinion.

I'm not going to discuss this further.

Tricky to do but you’re spot on especially your comment on “catching them” doing something good

even an exaggerated cuddle is a massive thing to them, I see their reaction when I implement … admittedly tricky to follow though

Yes you did say I said never reward your kids for good behaviour. Glad you don't want to discuss this anymore. I can go now 🙏

At some point you need to work out planning how to manage the situation and trigger points. This includes not going to the cinema so late if its going to cause an issue because you need to go to the supermarket too. Or going to the supermarket before the cinema.

I struggle because I had a complete mental breakdown last year. This was awful because I had all three kids throughout. My husband just couldn’t deal so ignored it and went away more.

Oh goodness, OP, this sounds awful and I'm sorry you've had such a tough time.
You sound as though you feel quite broken by it all. What help are you getting? Could you access some therapy or counselling? The adage about having to save yourself before you can save anyone else springs to mind.

Your husband really needs to step up. Does he have to go away for work, or is he going away to avoid the stuff he can't deal with and leaving it all to you? Do you have a supportive wider family?

@OhShutUpThomas your reply about how ineffective it would be to givd them each a job to do in shop made me think of this comedy bit:

Please just ignore the spikey, repetitive posts about the timing of popping into the shop. They're not helpful and will only serve to make you feel worse- plenty of people get it - the majority I think- so focus on their posts.

I can sense the overwhelm at so much advice, some of it conflicting. You don't have to do all of it, and certainly not at once.

Make a note of the key constructive takeaways and go with what feels most manageable to you to start with. E.g. if saying no-one has the trolley appeals most, then do that.

You know your children, we don't.

Chin up, lots of us have your back

Absolutely give her the opportunity to flourish in a year setting that is more suited to her needs. She will almost be the same age as ‘younger’ kids anyway. You are doing the right thing.
I have an ND DD and at times, parenting has been extremely challenging. She is absolutely immune to any form of ‘punishment’ but she understands boundaries and I’ve learned to parent her in a way that works (mostly) for us both. Your DD loves her pony and horses are known to be wonderful for kids with ND.

Above all, be kind to yourself. You’re parenting 3 kids on your own and it’s not easy. Nothing and no one is ever perfect.

No, I’m not. With behaviour management you look at what happened before the incident. Many people have said that taking an 8 year old & 2 siblings on a school night, to the cinema and then shopping is a recipe for disaster. You are not acknowledging this, you are not acknowledging their needs. You are punishing a small child for being in an untenable situation, no wonder she doesn’t behave as you want.

You slipped 'because we were living in my husbands home country in an educational system in a foreign language, in a bloody abusive home situation' into the mix.

So, are you in the UK now?

Is this a case of different cultures clashing, where children is seen as women's work and men aren't brought up to cope with it?

You also mentioned that you didn't want to start with a different therapist now - but that is exactly what you need to do. Heal, strengthen and develop yourself to make yourself more ready and able to bring up three challenging children.

Also be aware that it's possible your other two kids are winding up your daughter without you realising.

To do: make a doctor's appointment and start the process of getting therapy. Also - how old are you? Might peri menopause be starting to rev up?

Many people have said that taking an 8 year old & 2 siblings on a school night, to the cinema and then shopping is a recipe for disaster. You are not acknowledging this, you are not acknowledging their needs

Are you being nasty and gaslighty just for the sake of it? Do you enjoy it? I shouldn’t respond but…

It was not a school night.
We did not ‘go shopping’ we stopped to get milk. The two things are not the same.
I am not acknowledging what you say because it is not true. See above.
I am trying to meet my children’s needs as best I can.

People like you make me wish I hadn’t bothered asking for help.

I am going to have to step away for a bit. If one more person tells me ‘well your husband needs to step up’ - however well meant - I shall scream. He isn’t going to.

I have already answered the therapy question in detail, so again please don’t suggest I seek therapy as if it will be some lightbulb moment for me.

The kind replies are so much appreciated, more than you can know, and I will come back and reread them all again and follow up on links.

The nasty, sanctimonious, priggish and blaming replies - just why? What do you get from it?

Ignore it OP, some people are just unthinking twats.

I am not being nasty. I am being honest. I wish you well. I hope you solve your issues. I have over the years had some honest truths said to me, so have my friends and we have acted on them for the better. We all have functioning kids so although we had times when we didn’t get it right, we did our best to listen. You can choose to stick your kid on a list, and get them a label but that doesn’t change their behaviour in the here and now. 99% of issues with children is not accepting their sensory, physical and emotional needs and then “punishing” them when they “fail!”. This is why we have a nation of young adults unable to work and afraid to pick up a phone to carry out basic life tasks. It’s up to you to change for the better.

I would have left them in the car and nipped in and out for the milk, or even left them watching a video at home is you could get there and back quickly. 8 and 10 is plenty old enough alone for a few minutes.

To be fair, OP, you are in a much more extreme situation than was apparent from your initial post. I expect most posters took it at face value.

I hope things improve.

9pm is late to be going shopping with three kids in tow, especially if it requires a trolley. It can’t be the only time she can shop we have internet shopping.