How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

I think there are probably a lot of us who've adapted to a child like this by e.g. never taking them to the supermarket.

A lot of management of DD's more difficult behaviours when she was primary age involved planning ahead as much as possible to remove flashpoints.

So let me ask you, why would you as a parent feel it's ok to do that and manage your children, and some like my mother would consider that to be "pandering" to them?

It's only as an adult I have come to realise how many situations my mother actually put us all in as children, simply because her philosophy was that children should fall into line with what the adults are doing.

If a argument starts I just say I'm not talking as your getting angry. Then if it carry on - a simple we are not talking any more. Being consistent as they know the conversation is done. Like the fire triangle. You cut off the oxygen.

Personally i find it far, far more effective rather than essentially tell them to shut up, say "ok, I'm listening. What are you angry about?". And then actually listen to the answer. Acknowledge it. Help them to deal with their feelings. I'm the adult. It's my job to help them to process and understand their emotions, not to just cut them off and let them deal with it by themselves. That's how my parents raised me and i grew up an anxious wreck.

I'm not interested in arguing with my kids but if they're trying to argue with me it's usually a sign that they don't understand why or how something is happening. So I'll ask them what's up, and then I'll explain it and discuss. Sometimes they're still angry and that's ok.

This approach heads off 99% of dysregulation. It feels revolutionary to ditch the "do as i say or else" methods of parenting i was raised with but my children are growing up into wonderful, emotionally aware people. Certainly far more than i was.

If she's in meltdown, just saying "it's ok. I'm here with you" is quite often what they need instead of punishment. Show them that you aren't going to abandon them when they can't cope with something. During meltdown, it's pointless to try and punish. Just ride it out and then talk to them after.

Again it's contrary to everything i ever learned about parenting when i was growing up but it's changed everything.

That advice made me smile. To stop DD in that sort of situation at that age you'd have to physically lock yourself behind a door. And wait while she bashed on it. Simply stopping engaging would enrage her further. I sometimes think she gets a dopamine rush from seeing people worked up.

@gottabereallyhonest oh my mother would say the same. I've had to reduce contact with her and my sister as a result.

Sometimes you've gotta do what you've gotta do.

If a behaviour comes from anxiety, being overly authoritarian will just cause other bad effects.

The tantrums, the violent aggression, entitlement and particularly the smirking and gaslighting is a sure sign that she knows exactly what she's doing and enjoys pushing your buttons. These are tactics to see how far she can push you or test others. Take away her luxuries. Or treat her exactly the same. Embarrass her when youre out shopping. See how she likes it. Controversial I know but I have a brother and sister like this as kids and they've grown up to be two nasty pieces of work. Absolute users with little or no empathy for anyone but themselves! Not even their own mother or own kids! No amount of therapy or understanding will help this type of behaviour. There's no excuse for it!

Why couldn't she have a friend if not competing was the punishment?

Never mind, I should read further before I reply to an early comment on a long thread 🤦‍♀️

@OhShutUpThomas , you really have my utmost respect and sympathy. This all sounds very hard. One thing that stands out is that your DD has extremely low self esteem and lashes out when she is frustrated or triggered. Now while this can’t be ignored I think it needs to be seen as her form of communication.

It sounds as if her hobby (riding?) is something that she enjoys and is good at so. I would personally move heaven and earth to ensure she does this. It’s such an opportunity for her to feel good about herself, care for a creature and get away from all the hard stuff. I honestly wouldn’t use that as a punishment.

My own experience of a difficult child was to work with them as much as possible. Own it that going to the supermarket on a Friday night was never a good idea and tell them that. It was too much for everyone. If she needs different parenting from the others then try and find ways to do it. It will make life better for everyone.

You aren’t going to see a sudden transformation but you can definitely move on from this point more positively.

Just a final question that you obviously don’t have to answer but when your husband is at home how is he with them and you?

I haven't read all the responses so I apologise if I'm repeating anyone. However my youngest was quite explosive with her feelings and I found she couldn't take anything in in the moment so I waited until she had calmed down and would gently chat to her while having a cuddle and talk through what ever had caused the explosive reaction. I've never really been one for removing experiences or things they enjoy but just explaining the situation and how it could be dealt with differently really helped. I also apologised if I had over reacted as well.
Ask her how she wants to be talked to or how she would deal with the situation afterwards.

No one seems to know the (correct) answer to that.

I said not today and she has stormed out. No idea that she has done anything wrong was one explanation, suggesting the OP felt her daughter didn't deserve to have friends round, which in isolation is may or may not be fair, however, OP also says she called the friends mum to ask but was told they were busy and so she couldn't come, but then says they had visitors anyway.

Three reasons there given for not doing one thing, and I can't work it out.

Smirking can be a fight or flight response with ND kids. Fight/flight/fool (mess about)/fawn (overly compliant)/freeze. All signs that they don't know how to handle a situation.

It used to confuse me when DD did it but it's not a "smirk" and believe me as a teacher of teenagers I know what that looks like.

Haven't rtft but if she is neurodiverse you need a different approach

You are not over reacting. Being a mum let alone a single mum is really hard. You do what feels like the right thing to do as long as you don't smack her. Everyone is different and nobody knows your child better than you.

Mum's are not saints and should not be expected to be.

You can't speak rationally about punishment to a dysregylated child..personally I would never use such a strong punishment particularly as this is a child who clearly struggles to regulsre her emotional reactions.

She is stressed and struggling.

My autistic 11 year old used to behave like this including hitting. She has thankfully outgrown it and we never used strict punishments. Maybe a screen ban in the moment and firm words etc

Usually I treated as though she was in need of a break from others or the situation

We have a child at work who "smirks", it used to really push my buttons, but now I think it's a nervous reaction and he doesn't know what else to do with his face when he's being spoken to about something he's done wrong.

If your daughter loves riding I can see why it's tempting to use it as a punishment, but I think that would only make things worse. Its probably one of the times she feels most care free, and is something she is presumably quite good at which I think is really important when she knows she isn't as good as others at "school stuff".
Also the fact it was threatened days in advance and then hung over her all week, for it finally to come into force when she's tired and over stimulated just doesn't feel very kind.

Having worked a lot with children with learning disabilities, I would say your daughter's behaviour isn't at all unusual - she's quite young, life is stressful, she was tired and she lost it. There's no point in responding to her behaviour in the moment, she was just too wound up.

You say you had a trolley because your son wanted it. Not a criticism but ideally you should have anticipated the conflict and said 'no trolleys tonight.' If anyone had kicked off at that point, then a swift exit would have been in order.

Everyone's having a hard time, including you. Go as easy as you can. Let go of what happened and try to start again next week. Let her go to the competition.

Why are you at the shops at 9pm?? What time did you get home?

I have an autistic child who doesn’t sleep and I still am not out at 9pm. Even though he doesn’t sleep without medication he still needs to settle down at home.

Your daughter was tired. She has an intellectual disability. She needs to be at home and in bed (or at least settling down for bed).

She’s angry at you because you took away the only thing she’s good at. She’s acting out because she’s tired and you have her traipsing around the shops at 9pm at night. Personally, I get really angry at the shops. It’s the bright fluorescent lights, the beeping sounds of the check outs and the music.

Your daughter is 8 years old and needs to undergo assessment to find out what’s wrong with her. She shouldn’t have been held back at school - she should have had some form of intervention take place well before that happened.

This is on you. You need to create better habits for your children.

Smirking when you know you are doing something wrong means you know you are doing something wrong.

Why are you asking her why she was at the shops at 9pm? Maybe that's the only time she could go? Kids need to learn to compromise and every single thing doesn't have to be about them. Make her feel like shit why don't you? She's in charge and she can go to the shops whenever she see fit. Stop all this pandering to kids. Not all misbehaved kids are neurodivergent. Maybe mum is neurodivergent? Has anyone thought of that?

I think that @OhShutUpThomas has clarified that the girl is busy doing something with her family, so isn’t free to come over, @gottabereallyhonest.

@OhShutUpThomas - I think the idea of letting your dd earn back the competition tomorrow is a good idea. I would say “I want to let you go to your competition tomorrow, and I think you want to go, so we need to have a chat about how to achieve this. Firstly, I need you to understand that, when you behave badly, there will be consequences, and the consequences are the fault of the bad behaviour, not the person giving the consequence. If you can reflect and show me you understand this, and if you can behave well for the rest of today, you can go tomorrow.”

That may be too wordy, but I think the most important part is getting her to acknowledge that it is her behaviour that causes the consequences - that was the thing that really jumped out to me from your posts.

I also wonder if you have any help at home, and if not, whether you could afford some - you are carrying a huge load, and deserve some help with it, so if there was something you could put-source, that would give you a bit of a break (physically or mentally) that might be helpful.

I appreciate that children need to have consequences for bad behaviour. But good behaviour needs good consequencces too - like praise and treats for good behaviour, eg: it's so lovely that you're helping while we shop, or you're playing quietly.

If children just get attention by being shouted at or punished when they're bad, they will play up and be bad.

Routine helps even if child isn't sleeping. Again it sets boundaries and expectations.

A child going shopping at 9pm is thrown because they don't understand why they have to do it then and they are already tired even if they don't sleep.

Boundaries. Boundaries. Boundaries.

Explain why for everything in a preemptive way so they understand what's happening.

Read the update. She nipped in for a few bits not a full shop - her DS wanted the trolley.

Wow , so judgmental. Asked and answered - they were at the cinema and nipped in for a few bits to Tesco. No school today so not unreasonable.

DD hasn’t been diagnosed with any learning disability - OP says she suspects it and is currently awaiting assessment. She also says DD has been held back for valid reasons, so not sure why you’re pinning that on her because the school will have their reasons.

Good behaviour should not be rewarded unless its something out of the ordinary. A thank you and I love you should be enough to express how you feel about your child and that they will never tire of hearing.