How do you ‘punish’ a child who just doesn’t get it?

[OhShutUpThomas]

I am trying my best, I really am.

3 kids. H works away and has checked out of parenting. Not the issue of this thread so please let’s not dissect it, just to highlight that although not a single mother, I am parenting alone to 3 tweens and by God I am TRYING my absolute best.

BACKGROUND:

DD8 is lovely but tricky. Currently awaiting assessment as I am sure she has learning difficulties.

She sulks and gets cross a lot. She has always been a sulker but it has massively ramped up. She is currently being kept back a year at school due to many valid issues, which she was fine with but now with transition day (season, it seems to be now) upon us, she’s quite emotional.

All of this means that I tend to excuse/not see the milder bits of bad behaviour. I don’t ignore them, but I don’t come down like a ton of bricks.

But the really bad, sulky, petulant, cross and nasty behaviour, I cannot overlook. Whatever the cause.

THE CURRENT ISSUE:

She and her sister and their friends are really into a sport. They train every week together and go to competitions about 2-3 times a month.

Last week at training, DD8 completely lost her shit at a perceived slight from DD10 (she can’t cope with any criticism, even ‘hurry up’) which ended in her hitting DD10 hard with a large stick. There was a big telling off for this, and I said any more bad behaviour and she would not be doing this weekends competition.

She semi-behaved for a day or so, then last night kicked off again massively, ending with her shouting at me in Tesco. On the way in I’d said her brother could push the trolley, and was about to say that she could swap at the end of the aisle, but before I got there she had a massive tantrum because she wanted to push the trolley. I
explained about the swap, but that now that couldn’t happen due to the tantrum. She shouted ‘FINE, I’M LEAVING’ and went to run from the shop. I grabbed her, because she’s 8 and can’t run out into the world at 9pm (we’d been to the cinema). People are now looking.

I bring her back in and she sees the people looking and smirks because she thinks she won’t get told off. I proceed to tell her off anyway. She has already been warned very clearly several times in the last 5 mins that if this carries on she will not be competing this weekend.

She answered the telling off with ‘It’s not fair, I’m not walking with you, I wanted to push the trolley’ and went to run off inside. So I told her that that’s it, she is not competing at the weekend.

She was then furious and kept asking why I was being so mean to her. She stomped around the shop giving me nasty looks.

This has carried on. Last night putting her to bed after all this she asked why I wasn’t her friend. Why I was being so mean. I don’t think she even remembered what she’d done.

I explained it all again and asked whose fault it is that she isn’t competing - mine or hers. She said mine, because I’m the one that said it. She just doesn’t get it, and I really could not have made it clearer.

I am at my wits end. I really wanted her to compete this weekend, and would have let her ‘earn it back’ but that ship had sailed I think. Her sister will have to ride her pony as I’ve already paid the entries. DD8 will have to still come and watch as there’s no one else to have her.

I am just exhausted. I’m sorry it’s long but please, and help will be SO much appreciated.

@OhShutUpThomas it all sounds so very, very hard. I’d give you a big hug if I could.

I really like The Calm Parenting podcast which has some great strategies for dealing with challenging kids. I’d recommend giving it a listen - just ignore the ads and product pitch. He talks through situations like these where you’ve just got in over your head, and need to de-escalate, and how to do that without pandering or being a pushover. I have found it immensely helpful.

It is relevant though. It's not being judgemental. The children will be tired at this point so will be more likely to act up. You have to manage that. You are setting yourself and the daughter up to fail if you don't understand that after a certain time you are taking a risk by going to do the shopping. It's one thing too many.

It's a pick your battles type scenario.

Never reward good behaviour? Are you a monster?

If children are criticised they learn to be critical and don't learn to value themselves and their good qualities. In a household where criticism is prevalent, praise for ordinary good behaviour is the quickest way to change the dynamics.

https://www.dmu.ac.uk/about-dmu/news/2019/october/research-shows-praising-children-five-times-a-day-has-positive-impact.aspx

My mother also had a strong "why should I?" attitude towards me as well, so the idea that my sister and I might have a trolley each would have sent her into a meltdown - she seemed to have no concept that children like to do things (such as pushing trolleys) and I would very much have been told off and to stop being stupid...even if that situation had occurred many times before, there's no way she would have planned for it and sought a solution.

So the trolley thing - I am so confused.
Some people say ‘oh just let them all have one.’ But no supermarket needs 3 kids all toting trollies, plus I wouldn’t even have enough pounds.

Then others have said ‘just you push the trolley and don’t let them ever. That is the rule’ which appeals to me much more, but then I see posts like the above. If I never let my kids push the trolley, are they going to see that as mega controlling then grow up and write a bitter memoir??

Which should I do??

When I look back, there were so many thing my mother dragged me along to (most notably shopping trips and weddings) and I hated them all so very much.

Well my kids don’t have much choice as there’s just me, so thanks for a further kick.

We have a child at work who "smirks", it used to really push my buttons, but now I think it's a nervous reaction and he doesn't know what else to do with his face when he's being spoken to about something he's done wrong.

Yes I think this could apply to her.

I like the sound of this approach. Stay logical and calm. Don't let things trigger you.

I'm still practicing that with adults 😂

You give all three children a certain responsibility. It doesn't have to be the same one. I've already said this. You have ignored it.

As said many times, I had taken them to the cinema FOR A TREAT and dropped into Tesco on the way home for milk and bread, so there would be enough for breakfast. I couldn’t go before because the milk would have been too hot in the car.
This should not be too much to ask, and she was playing up before we even got there. But I needed the milk!!

And yes I know she needs assessment. But even when you’re prepared to throw thousands at it, it is bloody difficult.

There hasn’t been intervention before now because we were living in my husbands home country in an educational system in a foreign language, in a bloody abusive home situation TRYING MY FUCKING BEST.

I mean, how much more outing information do you want???

has clarified that the girl is busy doing something with her family, so isn’t free to come over,

So why the need to confuse it by mentioning two other factors?

She sounds exactly like my autistic child. These tantrums are her just not coping with her emotions in the moment. She needs understanding and an assessment not punishment. It simply won't work and it's unfair because she cannot help feeling overwhelmed, distressed and upset.

That was harsh! Sometimes a job just needs to get done. Why do you have to negotiate everything with your kids to get them to behave. It's bad practice in my opinion. Life is tough and it's not always fair. That's a good lesson for kids to learn. No need to be cruel but no need to constantly pander either.

But that just doesn’t work in practice. I am not ignoring you, there are many replies. But it doesn’t work. They all want the trolley. Just to focus on this one situation.
Different jobs doesn’t work because the kid with the shit job will moan, the kid with the trolley will smirk.
Taking turns at jobs doesn’t work because it never ends up 100000% fair - ‘it’s my turn to push the trolley!’ ‘No you had the last turn’ ‘yes but it was only a quick shop, it’s not fair if you get a big shop’ ‘you’re a big shop’ ‘MUMMMMMYYYYY he’s calling me names!’ and so on.

I would genuinely love someone to give me the answer, I am clearly too thick to see it.

All this diagnosing over the internet but what I see is an August born young girl who would have been three when Covid happened, with a mother who had a year with a mental health issue and has now been moved across the country in a new environment. Everyone is diagnosing a learning disability but what 8 year old wouldn’t be behind in those circumstances? It seems to me that she had a quite normal reaction for a 8 year old which doesn’t really need punishing as such but does need to be managed appropriately. Maybe she has had enough of her ‘competitive’ sister. My sister was really mean to me but in a stealthy way. I blame my mother for setting us against each other. I have taught my children to be kind to each other. There are good a kind suggestions on here.

If pushing the trolley is a flashpoint then honestly, just say nobody pushes the trolley. If it's a big shop you push it, if it's a small shop you don't get one.

How old is your DS? Apologies if you've said and I've missed it.

To be very honest about this one, there is no way I'd allow a 10 year old with no learning issues to freak out about pushing a trolley - they are far too old. When my two were 10 I would just have said 'no trolley tonight,' and that would be the absolute end of it. Any attempt to whinge would have been dealt with very fast.

My mum was all about rotas because my sister and I would have kicked off if one got to push the trolley and the other didn’t (although probably she pushed the trolley and neither of us was allowed). She literally had a calendar on the wall that said whose turn it was to have first bath / do piano practice first / whatever we were currently rowing about. Might that work? So DC 1 pushes the trolley today and you write that down on a calendar. Next time you go, it is DC 2’s turn and that gets written down.
(we get along very well now and are both very good at sharing!)

So just explain the next day that there’s only enough milk for one of them to have cereal, because I didn’t want to take them in a shop for 5 mins at 9pm?

Genuinely - what should I have done here?

My nephew is born in August. Maybe it's the Leo way. He's 35 now but still acts entitled and thinks the world revolves around him.

Also adding, I feel you OP. It is so so hard. Especially on your own.

She sounds very similar to my daughter who is the same age, I was thinking maybe it’s the first hormonal surge? I have no idea, it’s new waters for us we’re just taking it day by day 🫣

Very good. No means No.

I would have popped quickly into a local shop and left them in the car (realise this isn't always possible, depending on the kids). Or if that wouldn't work, suck up the fact that there's no milk and have something else for breakfast.

If all you were getting is milk and bread why did you need a trolley? A basket would have been fine and if they really wanted they could all carry one of them. You know your kids fight over the trolley, you knew it was 9pm and they’d be tired, it doesn’t take a huge amount of planning to just pick up a basket and try and avoid issues with the trolley full stop.

I haven’t got any answers, but her behaviour is very similar to that of my DD who has recently been diagnosed with ADHD. Look up Rejection Sensitivity Disorder, it might explain some of her reactions.

Ah yes, the Leo’s that have the birthday week :-)

Because her DS wanted to push a trolley. This is why I'm wondering how old the DS is, because I'm getting a distinct feeling that he knew full well this would set the 8 yr old off... Very often the "difficult" child is being wound up by siblings and the parents just don't see it because the siblings are "good" and aren't the ones screaming and hitting people with sticks...