How to tell DD no sleepovers

[NoSleepOver]

Hi,
My DD is 10 and some of the girls in her year at school have gradually started to have or go to sleep overs. One of the girls in my DD’s class has now invited 5 of them for a sleepover for her birthday.
Now each to their own but I will say that I am very much against sleepovers. I’ve just decided it’s a blanket no. The problem I have now is my DD asking me why not. I know the girls parents fairly well - they aren’t friends of mine but I’ve known them a few years, they seem decent enough and we’ve spent time together with the kids outside of school. But of course you never really know, hence why I’m just saying no to sleepovers for the foreseeable future. I know not everyone will agree, but this is the decision I have made.
DD is now asking me why she can’t go and obviously I can’t say because her parents might be p**s! I obviously don’t think they are, but you never can tell can you. And it’s easier say no to everyone than yes to some and no to others.
To DD so far I’ve said she might not like it and want to come home, that she has no means to contact me as she doesn’t have a phone - DD wants to go and obviously doesn’t understand the issue, so insists she won’t want to come home and that if she needs to speak to me she will ask the parents to contact me.
Help me make it make sense to her and why it’s ok for other people to go and not her!

Oh no, not at all. I don't think there are stats on specifically how much abuse proportionally takes place at a sleepover. The stats are enormously skewed anyway because only around 10-30% of childhood sexual abuse is ever disclosed.

What I was saying there is that many people have posted here "your children are far more likely to be abused by family than anyone else"- and the stats (unhelpful as they are) don't demonstrate that, it's just myth. At most, the stats demonstrate that they're about equally likely to be abused by a family member as someone else.

But what I am saying is that I have involvement in these cases where charges have been laid by police. Often the charges are withdrawn at an early stage (due to unwillingness of the victim to proceed, or the prosecution service declining to take carriage). Abuse at places like sleepovers is about the hardest to prosecute because it's the ultimate he said/she said situation and often takes place in the dark.

trigger warning
Ultimately, when your child is lying in the dark in a strange room, and the other child they're with is asleep, and an adult or elder sibling or cousin creeps in, or even the other child starts acting unexpectedly, your child is in an extraordinarily vulnerable position, more vulnerable than pretty much any of the other situations we accept for our children these days. In this thread alone many people have disclosed abuse in this specific scenario. The lifelong consequences are horrific. It's not a risk I'm willing to accept for my children.

@Yazzi Thanks for the clarification. I’m another person who genuinely thought that children were more likely to be abused by a family member than anyone else, No idea where that belief comes from, but I think it’s widespread.

I appreciate your point about a child’s particular vulnerability at a sleepover.

@Yazzi Can I ask what makes you feel children are more vulnerable in that particular situation than any other? I appreciate what you’re saying about the potential danger of course, but statistically, do you know the actual likelihood? ie of all the children who attend sleepovers every weekend, what number have something terrible like this happen to them in that precise setting?

I think a lot of fears and anxieties are based on personal experience or anecdotes of friends so of course, if this has happened to you or someone you know, you will be scared. Just like someone who has had a car crash will be scared to get in a car. But it doesn’t mean that it’s a rational decision to prevent your child from enjoying a normal part of life just because something terrible might happen.

The fact that there are a lot of awful anecdotes on this thread is selection bias. If you start a thread about nightmare builders, you’ll get a lot of anecdotes about nightmare builders. That doesn’t mean all builders are dishonest or awful.

None of this is to deny the seriousness or awfulness of what you’re saying. But I think before restricting our children’s lives and projecting anxiety onto them, we need to attempt some accurate sense of the level and likelihood of danger as well as the seriousness of it if it happens.

So when you say ‘most vulnerable situation’, do you have reason to believe that is actually true, or is just a feeling/anxiety? I can think of all sorts of situations where my child is likely to be more vulnerable than at a friend’s sleepover - starting with crossing the road, but also skiing (which he loves), playing football or rugby. I know far more people who have been seriously injured by sport or in road accidents than abused at sleepovers (even accounting for unreported cases). But I feel that preventing him playing sport would still be an incorrect risk/benefit analysis.

I am speaking as a child of anxious parents - as a result I am a slightly anxious adult, and I try extremely hard to let my children take more risks than I did, and not have their lives limited by their parents specific fears.

Hey :) no I don't have stats on it, you're right that ultimately it comes down to parents own risk assessment of where "too risky" lies.

But in terms of most vulnerable situation - I think of every context I would reasonably expect my child to be in, and only sleepovers involve them in bed, unconscious, with their caring adults far away and unconscious, in a house with multiple people who I don't know well, and potentially some I don't know at all. So when I say riskiest- it's relative to my life and my children's lives.

Also I think risk balances many things. One is just not of immediate harm but long term impact. Certainly serious injuries can occur at sport- but very few children who break their arm playing football are dealing with the repercussions every day of their adult lives as many abuse survivors do. Another element is how hard is it to avoid the risky activity- someone before used the example of being in a car- physically riskier but close to impossible to avoid. By contrast, sleepovers are not overly hard to avoid (in my opinion- many in this thread have disagreed).

Despite my job I am not a really anxious parent myself (I would be if I were a doctor or nurse though I think). I would say the only two lessons (as such) I've brought home from work is noone should ever talk to the police without a lawyer present, and no sleepovers for children.

@Yazzi Yep I understand what you're saying about them being in a particularly vulnerable situation but I think some of the reasons you give are feelings rather than concrete risks. A child asleep and away from their parents feels/looks particularly vulnerable, but for example, when I can think of all the slightly risky/unpleasant predatory behaviour (to be clear, not full SA) I have had to deal with in my life, most of this happened as a teenager/young adult, all of it happened when I was awake rather than asleep. I can think of two instances on public transport, one on a beach, one in a pub. I may not have looked or seemed vulnerable to my parents, but it turned out, I was.

So, I do try to make broadly statistical analyses of how risky something is before I decide whether my children can do said thing. I am personally slightly frightened of air travel but I know the real risks are minuscule, so I try to swallow my fears and I try particularly hard not to pass them on to my children.

If I thought 1 in every 100 children who went to a sleepover got sexually assaulted, I would of course not let my children go. If it's 1 in 100,000, then - as traumatic and horrendous as the lifelong impact for that 1 child would be, I wouldn't feel it was worth depriving my children of a really fun and bonding friendship experience.

I suspect the actual risk level lies somewhere between those two extremes but I do worry about some of the parents in this discussion who say not only that they're not comfortable with it, but they tell their children why. I don't think it is healthy for children to believe that their friends' fathers are likely to sexually assault them if, in fact, the risk of this is very small indeed. It is likely to make the children overly anxious and pass on those same anxieties (or more general anxiety) to their own kids.

@NoSleepOver I could've written your post. I just had this exact conversation with my own 10 year old DD. After a lot of tears, she's finally accepted my position. I had to explain to her that while I do know the parents, I do not know everything about them. I do not know their relatives or friends who might pop in that evening/night. There was an incident in the news (I know its extremely rare) where an ex partner murdered the entire family including a child who had come for a sleepover. There are so many scenarios we cannot possibly articulate/risk proof everything.

Also, more recently I am thinking about online risks. I see that many parents have a more relaxed approach and allow gadgets in bedrooms, and I have no idea of the controls on them. How can anyone predict what they might get up to at night? My DD does not have any gadgets and can use her laptop in the communal area. I know her friends have gaming consoles, iPads and phones.

Having read other posts I agree that while risks exist at all hours, there is something about everyone being asleep and the child being vulnerable while asleep that wants me to not allow her to go on sleepovers.

I think 11pm non-sleepover parties are the way to go. Luckily my older DD wasn't allowed on sleepovers until 16, so I am using that as the thumb rule in our house.

I don't mind having her friends over at our place for sleepovers (only when DH is travelling, so there are only girls in the house) and happy to face the social awkwardness of this imbalance.

I think there is a difference in taking risks to achieve essential goals/ activities versus the non-essential ones.

Don’t forget that those parents who are reluctant to allow this little bit of liberty at 12, or even 15 are only a very short time away from them going off to university at 18 and having no restrictions. I think it is very important to prepare them for this time well ahead.

Why don't you just tell her the truth. My daughter asked me once when she was 10 and the family concerned we're not the nicest and I didn't like the partner of the mother as he was known to smoke drugs and was involved with sexual activities which were not very savoury. I didn't tell my daughter that bit but I was honest how I felt. I did placate her by saying she can come over for a play date and they could have as much fun as they wanted.
Tell your daughter how you truly feel you owe it to her.

Wow, I feel sorry for your daughter. Storing up problems for when she’s older.

My daughter has been on - and we’ve hosted - dozens of sleepovers and she’s only 8. Can’t remember when she had her first one, probably around 3-4. She’s always asking to go on them with her friends.

Sleepovers are part of childhood and growing up. Is the first time she sleeps outside your house going to be when she moves in with her boyfriend??

Do you let your daughter go to school? I mean if one murder at a sleepover stops sleepovers are you aware how many kids have died at, or going to, school?

I feel really sorry for your daughter. She’ll be totally unprepared for the real world and you are doing her a major disservice as a parent.

@GiveDogBone - Lets agree to disagree.

I was trying to make the point that unexpected things can happen at sleepovers and a child too young to decide how to keep themselves safe - is at risk. I didn't mean this specific thing is going to happen.

Meanwhile I very much doubt that sleepovers are the ONLY way to 'be totally prepared for the real world' and a child who doesn't go to sleepovers is going to be SO TOTALLY unprepared. Hilarious!

Be honest,
her reaction should to then go towards your needs so invite in day & spend time with parents.

This. The likelihood of sexual abuse at a sleepover is.tiny. Much more likely to be someone you know well and has continued access to a child. They tend to groom children as then they are less likely to tell anyone. A “ungroomed” child at a sleepover is much more likely to run straight home and tell, and you’ll know exactly who they are and where they live, making them a much less likely victim. Plus there are going to be multiple other children there. Very difficult for someone to get a child on their own.

Sleepovers are amazing childhood experiences. Kids love them. To deny them that because of your anxiety over a miniscule risk is poor parenting imo and a huge overreaction.

You need to model managing risk as a,parent not try to eliminate all risk. Wrapping children in cotton wool is not good for them, it’s terrible for their development.

What could be more worried about at a sleepover is unfettered access to phones and the internet which have been used by children to bully each other and to access sites they shouldn’t be when in an over excitable group situation where they can egg each other on. So I would want no phones in the room ideally. That’s much more likely than sexual abuse happening.

if you want to protect your child from such things you’d be better educating her on what to look out for, what to do if she’s worried/uncomfortable and bodily autonomy. You could try to prevent her from sleepovers and school trips (and thereby limit her life experience and development) and then the worst happens to her while at a relatives house, or in a public toilet. You can’t (and shouldn’t) try to limit her life by never letting her experience things or do things on her own. Instead you should try to educate her so she’s aware of risks and knows what to do if she finds herself in a difficult situation.

We don't let our 11 year old boy on sleepovers. But we do let him have them, not many friends but one at a time. You can always make excuses if it gets recipricated.

OP is afraid the parents might be a paedophiles (p....s)

This! A few pp’s have advised saying OP doesn’t trust the other parents, that’ll absolutely get back to them and make life really awkward. I can understand not allowing sleepovers, and erring on the side of caution, but the likelihood is they’re not paedos and insinuating they are to your daughter is likely to open a can of worms.

I also think hosting at yours when you won’t allow her to go to someone else’s is a bit hypocritical tbh. I’d just say “I still think you’re too young, maybe when you’re older. How about I pick you up at 10/11 so you can still have all the fun?”

Saying that you are concerned about the risks of a sleepover in general and that it is better to ban them all doesn’t brand the other parents anything?

I haven’t read all the responses but I know I’m commenting along the same lines as others - as a survivor of CSA I don’t think you’re over reacting and I plan to adopt the same rule with my future children. The risk of abuse at a sleepover is exponentially higher than say a play date during the day.

A child being old enough to use a phone or articulate what happens makes little difference when it’s already happened - the trauma has happened and the damage is done. Yes she will be upset and perhaps she will feel like her friendship aren’t as close as the others - that pain is MINUSCULE compared to the pain of experiencing abuse and the life long effects it would have. Knowing the parents makes absolutely no difference, some people are married to these monsters and have no idea what they are capable of. Why do people think pedos will look like pedos??

Growing up I remember being told “different houses have different rules” - it’s a rule you’ve decided on based on her age I think that is simple enough to stand firm on.

Also, the CSA I experienced happened while sleeping over at a family members house - so not quite the same but I do think there is very much an increased risk of something like this happening when a child is somewhere overnight compared to being somewhere during the day.

I was never allowed sleepovers ever and I never understood why. It was never explained to me but my parents were the typical strict immigrants so there is that! I had loads of friends and never felt left out of my friendship group so I was lucky in that sense. I was always allowed to do other social things with friends but overnight was just a no.

I’m about to become a first time mum and both my husband and I know we won’t let our child have sleepovers when the time comes. I definitely understand why my parents were so strict with it and now as an adult I appreciate their decision. I think it’s really important to have the open conversation with a child and explain it to them so they understand why.

Nope not for me either.

My DS stayed with a friend once and was allowed to play outside on a public field with no adult supervision in the dark. Just not something I would have ever allowed and it’s made me realise I have no control over what the other parent does or doesn’t allow.

I also know from working in probation for a while that there’s a lot of creeps out there that you wouldn’t suspect!

I totally respect what you're saying and your right to say 'no sleepovers' at age 10, but I think there's a confirmation bias going on here and it's skewing things badly wrong.

Any parent who agrees with you - especially those who've had experience of abuse - has no reason not to jump in and support you. So they all jump in and support you.

Any parent who disagrees with you - and has never had any trouble themselves or with their DD's (and statistically this is the VAST majority, don't forget) - is going to be reluctant to jump in and 'be disagreable'. We're mums.. 99% of us are decent and want to be kind, we don't want to argue or cause unnecessary upset. We just leave it be, we don't want anyone to feel persecuted so we say nothing.

So you're not getting an accurate picture here.

OP, I 100% agree with your stance on this. It's not nice to think about, but stuff happens more than you think. I have worked in child protection for a while, and you would be shocked at how much stuff happens in these types of situations. It's not always s**l absue, but some pretty grim things do happen.
You may indeed have some backlash from your DD, but your priority is to keep her safe. You are not the only parent with this stance x

Stick to your guns. As a child I went for a sleepover and the older sister put a hamster down the back of my pjamas and the next day showed me her bloodstained period knickers. Never went for another after that.

Well, you can't miss something you have never experienced. And I don't think anything about sleepovers sound fun...it's not an experience I wish I had had.

Sure, there are many dangers in the world, but that's not a good reason to hand kids over to potential child predators, and let them sleep at their house.