Well I've just lost my daughter due to the Supreme Court ruling. s

[Lucelady]

So as not to drip feed she's a Ftm trans person and a universty student.
I've just been called a TERF, JKR supporter and transphobic. We've had four years of peace and understanding with her not wanting any surgery or hormones. She listened to the ruling last week and we chatted it through. The last few days she's been glued to the Internet and her phone. Now it's all changed and her 'friends' have called for action. What that action is I've no idea.
She's stormed out.

It’s amazing how this thread has run and run. The OP, a real person concerned about her daughter, asked for some advice and empathy. There has then been a pile-on by pro-trans posters who cannot let it go. Accusing mothers of “vitriol” or “extremism” for some concern about their adult kids who are still member of their household! Complete reversal of the true situation.

I would like to answer your question but I literally don’t understand it! Sorry. Do I not think what?

If someone doesn't have a gender identity (as far as they can tell by how it's been defined), are they trans, in your opinion?

It’s a perfectly simple question, @Thegreyhound …

I think so much of all this nonsense is when young people are bored, they simply have too much time sitting on their asses on their phone.

Maybe it’ll change but today my 15 year old 1has been at cricket 10-2, home for quick shower, out to meet friends for Nando’s, just got back in, he’s going to chill for an hour on phone and then I’ve asked him to clean my car. He will do that, have dinner, promised an hour of revision and then gaming / phone until he drops his phone in my room at 10pm.

17 year old DD, supports a dance teacher with her Saturday classes 8-12
home for lunch
studying for 2 hours,
and now sunbathing before me taking her out for a driving lesson and she’s promised to do dinner in return.
evening she’ll watch a film with me.

yes phone intercepted of course

but they’re BUSY. With people, exercising, outside, chores.

I KNOW this sounds smug. I get that. I am a single parent and we have difficult times for sure. But they’re fit, busy, and interacting in person with people and I am yet to have a whiff of any of this or indeed has either one of them either screamed aggressive
names at me.

Get them in to weekend sports clubs from a young age…. Can’t beat it

Have you considered if you genuine fear is predators that if everyone uses the toilet aligned to their birth sex you will see male presenting people in female toilets/changing areas who should be there.

And then if a predator wanted to impersonate a transperson to access a victim it would be easier for a man to say he was FTM when he wasn't?

I don't understand why you keep saying "women" like you speak for every women. You don't.

I still stand by in your house the toilet is unisex, most disabled toilets are unisex, and it's not a strawman to point out there are nuances such as intersex people.

If you follow that though, you may see FTM transpeople who present as male using areas aligned to their birth sex. Then if your concern is predators, and feelings of safety it is just as easy or potentially easier for them to masquerade as FTM to access victims.

Of course i don't let strangers use my loo, but it is unisex, as are disabled loos.

Intersex people aren't male or female, they are intersex that's the whole point. 1.7% of the population is estimated to be intersex, and some have XXY opposed to XX or XY so don't align to either. I'm struggling as to why you want to respect the intersex communities wishes (thus allowing them to continue to be in whatever spaces they want) but not the wishes of the trans community

You're saying "women", you're speaking for everyone. I'm not suggesting "women should remove themselves to suit a male". The "male" who in this case would disagree and say they were MTF or trans or maybe would just identify as a woman, probably doesn't want or need you to remove yourself. Im saying if you're uncomfortable, you can remove yourself to suit you. You don't have to. You just can, because you can only control your own behaviour.

@Laura95167 but that can’t possibly be the way forward.
As a society we can’t pretend humans aren’t the sex they were born because to do so has no advantage.
How can we have medical advances if science can’t accurately state if someone is male or female?
Is the world’s oldest person going to be male now? Is the world’s strongest person going to be female?
How are underrepresented workforces going to show they are? The figures will all be wrong.
Female only spaces aren’t there to be nasty to trans people. They are to protect and support women. Men don’t need a single sex space if anything.

If you have a Y you are a male. Simple.

The supreme court stated the law. They did not change anything. So nothing is their fault. If a parent and child have different views (as is often the case with my 5 adult children particularly at university stage) that's fine - people don't have to lose each other over it. In fact you never really lose a child as like it or not she is half your DNA and a vast amount of how you brought her up so you will always be with her whether you like it or not. Just wait it out and all will be fine.

The 2010 Act not only prohibits discrimination on grounds of sex but also gender and sexual orientation and other things so in the round I don't think trans people have too much to fear and the 50% of the UK which is female can now return to a world of fact, science and sense and what the 2010 always has said.

Couldn’t agree more. Well said. You sound like a fantastic parent.

Not smug. I totally agree.
Keeping them busy, feeling like they are developing and having adventures, around other people, active and off their phones is crucial

Science can determine if some is biologically male, female or intersex.

Unfortunately gender (not sex) is a social construct and uses the same terminology.

Honestly oldest/strongest person - not sure i care if that's a man or a women. And workforce statistics always carry a risk of being inaccurate because a lot is self declared and "prefer not to say" is a valid response.

Transpeople can also be at risk from predators. And i genuinely don't understand the position of let's exclude transpeople from "safe" spaces, instead of let's make more spaces safe for everyone not a predator regardless of sex or gender.

I don't know if it's been reviewed in the UK but in the USA, the Williams Institute found transpeople were 4 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime (including rape and sexual assault) than men or women. That's based on reported incidents and statistically it makes no difference as to whether you are trans or not, as to reporting rates and percentages

transpeople were 4 times more likely to be the victim of a violent crime (including rape and sexual assault) than men or women.

I can't work out what this is supposed to say (I'm assuming typo somewhere)? Trans people are men and women.

And i genuinely don't understand the position of let's exclude transpeople from "safe" spaces,

No problem there, because no-one is seriously suggesting that. Trans status or not - that's not a deciding factor as to whether a person can come into a space - despite how it's often reported in the news.

The position is that where a space is restricted to one sex you use the appropriate one, regardless of what you consider gender identity to be, what football team you support or whether you wear lipstick. None of those things are suggested as a factor that determines which space you go in.

And then if a predator wanted to impersonate a transperson

If someone says they are trans then they are trans. There are no external validating criteria - or are you suggesting there should be? That is what self-ID is.

My home toilet is not unisex; it’s a private single person toilet space used by people who live in or are invited in to our home. It’s not free for any potential perv to upskirt me, DH or DC. If all public toilets were completely enclosed single use spaces, I doubt anybody would really have a problem with them being not single-sex (apart, possibly, from moaning about pee on the seats). Entirely different from a row of cubicles with spaces underneath, and having to share a basin and mirror with a stranger of the opposite sex.

Male-presenting people are women. They don’t have a functioning penis and are not going to rape me, potentially making me pregnant. It’s not physically possible.

A minority of people insisting that we be kind to a minority of men doesn’t mean we all have to allow rapists (let’s face it, all rapists are men, although not all men are rapists) in to our spaces.

Back to the real world, I don't know anyone who openly invites strangers to use their home loos. Home loos are for family and friends.
When using single sex facilities, such as loos, changing rooms, wards etc, they are single sex (not to be mistaken with any preference from a cult/ideology).

Not trying to belittle what you are going through at all, it sounds so tough, but I think that's the best way. Not to give it any serious energy at all. Its likely just a rebellious phase, even if she stays trans identifying I don't believe she will be against you forever. As she grows up she will realise that a huge part of success in life is learning to get on with other people who may not have the same views.

The majority of us have met transwomen in real life. That is why we think the way we do. But you never considered that, did you?

Besides, you really don't get it. It's about MALES. Regardless of how they identify. And we don't need to get to know males (though all of us do know them) to know that males don't belong in female only intimate single sex spaces.

Posters like @Thegreyhound really are completely and utterly oblivious to the possibility many/most of us do indeed have experience with transwomen. They are completely and utterly oblivious to that fact, they must think we're stupid! It never dawns on them that we have personal experience with transwomen. The sincerely touted 'oh if you just meet a transwoman you'll think differently!' is so earnest but so amusingly stupid. They really are that incredibly naive. Even if I hadn't had experience with transwomen, seeing the coverage of all the protests against womens rights, going back to when Posie Parker kicked it off shows one how dangerous, how viciously hate-filled and violent these transwomen are. They do themselves no favours. One look at even one of their protests; and we'll all formed our opinion. One, just one, is all anyone need see.

They are mass gaslighters. Vitriol is taking barbed wired baseball bats to womens rallies, a bag of knives (in one case) to womens rallies, threatening to skin us alive. Threatening to burn buildings down where we're holding meetings. Telling us we should be raped until we bleed. THESE are the absolute scum that is your side, @Thegreyhound ! And you have the fucking gall to dare say we have vitriol. You are all that you support. Wear this as a badge of honour!

If this is this side you're on, @Thegreyhound , you are NOT on the side of the good guys. Also this;

I rest easy in the knowledge that I am not on the side of hate, violence, malignant misogyny, that gives rape threats, death threats, that throws molotov cocktails at buildings where vulnerable women are meeting, that wraps baseball bats in barbed wire, that brings knives to meetings, or that urinates on statues dedicated to women who fought hard for our rights over 100 years ago, to make a point that I am 'pissing on feminists'. I am on the side of women and girls who simply want to meet peacefully to discuss issues relating to us. I am proud that I am on the good side. If you're on the good side, you don't need to bring violence. Feminist, and PROUD!

Wow, are you ever deeply, DEEPLY ill-informed.

Intersex are EITHER male OR female. They are not neither, or both. It simply means their external organs don't match their biological sex. A chromosome test will show what sex they are. I suggest you google about intersex because you are so deeply ill-informed you are making a fool of yourself. Every single intersex person is male or female. This is a biological fact. The true amount of intersex people is less than 1%. Not 1.7%.

As to respecting the wishes of the trans community, their wishes means women lose our rights. They don't respect OUR wishes. Intersex (now called people with DSD, by the way) people take nothing away from women and girls. That's the point. Whereas trans, their wish is to remove every safeguard, every space, every right that women ever fought for. The answer to that, is NO!

The FTM bs line they are running now has been debunked so many times.

And the joke that 'well your toilet at home is unisex' is such an embarrassing 'argument', I feel sorry for you. As I said, our toilet home is different from a PUBLIC facility when out and about, that caters for only females. I mean, at least have some self respect! People who spin this argument are mocked for good reason. It's so mind-numbingly stupid!

Intersex are not a third sex. Again, they are either male OR female. A Chromosome test will show which. All homo sapiens are either male or female.

It's about MALE vs FEMALE. Not 'trans'. Female ONLY spaces exist SPECIFICALLY to exclude all males, regardless of how they identify. If you're a male, even if you 'identify' as a woman, you are necessarily excluded from FEMALE ONLY spaces by design and intent. We make these spaces safer by excluding any and all males.

The Williams 'institute' bullshit was debunked. It was self-reporting and people listed someone giving them a strange look or using the wrong pronoun as 'hate'. It has been roundly derided and debunked. Common sense tells you that a big strapping built like a brick shithouse male in a dress is not more likely to be raped than an ACTUAL WOMAN. Come on, put your brain into gear! The Williams 'Institute' themselves had to make a statement of how unreliable their study was. I find it strange this Williams bullshit is still being passed around as anything valid. People are so gullible, I guess. Transwomen are, in fact, the safest group out, the most protected, the most powerful, and the most privileged.