Well I've just lost my daughter due to the Supreme Court ruling. s

[Lucelady]

So as not to drip feed she's a Ftm trans person and a universty student.
I've just been called a TERF, JKR supporter and transphobic. We've had four years of peace and understanding with her not wanting any surgery or hormones. She listened to the ruling last week and we chatted it through. The last few days she's been glued to the Internet and her phone. Now it's all changed and her 'friends' have called for action. What that action is I've no idea.
She's stormed out.

This is something I've heard/seen discussed in various places, like radio 4/news articles etc, usually when someone who's an expert on cults is being interviewed or has a book out. So tbf I can't give you cast-iron stats, but here are a few examples of people talking about it (people who are experts in the field)

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/freedom-mind/202109/refuting-common-misconceptions-about-mind-control-cults

https://www.csueastbay.edu/philosophy/reflections/2010/contents/kayl-teix.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/2tszmFR4FWV3WmBMCjcm0V4/the-secret-language-of-cults

https://stevenhassan.substack.com/p/errant-belief-6-too-intelligent-join-cult

I think it's thought to be because more intelligent and/or educated people are more likely to see themselves as having superior understanding of things, have more experience of constructing convincing arguments or explanations of things to convince themselves, etc.

Would your experience agree that ignoring or not responding to certain challenging behaviours from ND children is not such an effective strategy as it is with NT children? IME, DS2 has a chromosomal abnormality and diagnosed ADHD. Since he was young his paediatrician said that he had "autistic traits" and very many people who met him said similar (professionals and "ordinary" people). We struggled with a lot of challenging behaviours which often centred around anger, and not responding would just exacerbate the situation. I really feel that those who don't experience it, just don't get it.

OP has said that her DD is on ASD, so not sure how she would answer that?

And I’d assume it depends upon the challenging behaviour? No one would ignore a child running into the road, for example, whether they are NT or ND, but often the best way to de-escalate rising conflict is to distract, ignore or not react.

So in OP’s case, the fact that DD has not come back and immediately proffered an apology is a deescalation strategy lead by OP’s DD. Where PPs are saying she should have challenged this, it would actually only reignite the conflict and fan the flames, which serves neither party well. Much better to proceed as though the screaming match is now in the past and later on simply ask ‘are you feeling okay now?’ Which, IME, has usually led to an apology of sorts, however indirect (‘yeah, I was feeling really tired and emotional earlier. Sorry about that.’) This, in turn can open a constructive dialogue (though, in OPs case, that is best avoided on this topic just now).

So, as the parent of ND children (and I appreciate you didn’t ask me, you were asking OP), no I don’t agree that ignoring/not responding is an ineffective strategy. It is often the wisest move if your ND has boxed themselves into a corner and/or is captured by their fixed mindset on a particular issue. As I mentioned above, it’s about picking your battles. If you choose them wisely, and win the ones you select, they lay a solid foundation for the bigger battles ahead. It’s a game of chess.

and physical changes in dress and behaviour.

what were the changes?

Either way

your daughter was incredibly rude and even aggressive

I think an apology and at least a whiff of repentance, guilt, something, would be a civil, kind human response. And I’d be disturbed and perturbed if my child at this age didn’t feel some kind of apology was being so aggressively offensive was in order.

@Curioushoney just stop with a) the noseyness. The OPs DDs Physical expression of herslef is nothing to do with you and she has already stated - no meds, no surgeries. And b) it matters not a single jot whether you would expect an apology from your child - OP is happy with the way things are settled with hers because - as the opening post was titled - she was concerned that she had ‘lost’ her that she may not come back. She did come back and there is an entente cordiale in place. So just stop pushing.

So I can’t make the comment that even putting aside the issue which caused the argument, the fact that it was this particular issue that caused the abuse does not excuse the DD from hopefully feeling sorry and actually apologising to her mother.

Its almost as though any argument around this issue excuses the person who behaves abhorrently to their mother just by being this particular issue

On the matter of experts, I have noticed that to become one you just have to say you are. Lord Salisbury, a British Prime Minister in the days when that meant something remarked "One thing long experience of life has taught me is that you never should trust experts". I was married many years ago to a brilliant woman who suffered from mental problems. We went to several experts, and particularly to what was then seen as the leading Clinic. They were all useless. Eventually she recovered on her own.

OP has stated "DD is disabled but not ASD"; you must have mis-read her posts or confused them with other posters.

You'll have seen from my post that DS2 had challenging behaviours which often centred around anger, and IME that's why distraction, ignoring or not reacting was often not an effective strategy. IME many parents facing similar issues have felt similarly. I did also say many parents of ND children, which indicates not all, so that would fit your experience.

If OP and her DH had disagreed on something and he had verbally abused her, walked out and then returned the following day and acted like nothing had happened, would you also term that a "de-escalation strategy"?

Typo = it was meant to say OP has stated her DD is NOT ASD, thus couldn’t reply to the question about whether to challenge an ND child.

my error. Wish you could go back and edit for more than a few mins!

and yes, as my post states, this is a classic de-escalation strategy in relationships where there is conflict.

If OP and her DH had disagreed on something and he had verbally abused her, walked out and then returned the following day and acted like nothing had happened, would you also term that a "de-escalation strategy"?

good point

Let me get this straight.

Not only do we have to refer to female human beings by male pronouns, which is, let's face it, not likely to be in my presence as you don't tend to use pronouns then - but also on an anonymous forum when referring to an anonymous 21 year old, we also have to refer to them by their preferred pronouns?

And yet, you presumably don't think this is cult-like behaviour, to try and control how people are thinking about other people?

Are you actually insane?!

(back to the last two pages now)

Yes… as explained… if you challenge her, it reignites the argument and fans the flames. If OP backs off, DD will likely offer an apology in due course - but the point is the argument, the conflict has not been continued, prolonged or escalated. I speak from experience of a DD with whom I have argued with/heatedly discussed this issue many times over 8 years. It is too emotionally charged and triggering to keep going on at her about it just to score an apology.

What you want is to re-establish cordial relationships, one where DD is not NC, had not ‘left’ the family home, so you let the subject lie. The apology usually comes if you don’t demand it - and what value does it have if you demand it any way? It’s forced! You want a genuine ‘sorry’ or none at all.

I’m not talking about challenging her

i am talking about a civil decent human being wanting to apologise to their mother for aggressive abuse

and in the absence of one being offered, the OP explaining how upset she was with the abuse (no challenging re this issue itself) and feels an apology is in order for the aggression.

How long does it take for you DD to apologise when she has aggressively abused you?

"Combining people’s responses to these two questions provides a more detailed look at where individuals stand on trans identity. What we now see is a near even split among the public between people who think you should be able to change both your social and legal gender (32%) and those who think you should be able to change neither your social nor your legal gender (33%)." The bigger number indicates the majority.

She doesn’t aggressively abuse me. We have heated disagreements on certain trans/GI related issues from time to time which end up with storming out, stomping up stairs, slammed doors. They’ve even resulted in suicide attempts and self-harming requiring A&E - not that it’s any of your business. But she always apologised for being rude and disrespectful later, for the outbursts, for what she has put me and her dad through. It might be later the same day. It has even been a few months later on holiday when the same topic has come up and she is in a better place, feeling less emotional and more able to discuss the topic rationally.

But like I say, it’s absolutely none of your business. Nor do I have to discuss my parenting strategies with you as I only came on to reach out to a parent in a similar place to where I have been to offer HER support. But my fragile, once very mentally ill, trans Id-ing child is still living at home, excelling in college and heading off to uni soon (undamaged by surgery or hormones/drugs). She knows she is very much loved and is recovering more and more each day. The teenage rants are rarer and rarer. So I’ll trust my judgment on the basis of her relative happiness and her mental and physical wellness.

HTH. Now please back off.

i did once say to my GP that I feel like I am in an abusive relationship, where I have been gaslighted, expressly abused, coerced and emotionally manipulated for nearly a decade. The difference is that unlike a marriage you can’t just leave.

this is abuse. And much more than “heated discussions”

But like I say, it’s absolutely none of your business

so don’t bloomin answer

but it’s an anonymous chat forum so if I ask how long does it take for your DD to apologise and you don’t want to answer, don’t

Fuck off

Absolutely, I'm aware that many experts are self-appointed and even those that aren't can be wrong. The links I provided were to pieces by academics and journalists who study cults, and there are also people who've been in them who write about them sometimes. The claim being discussed, that cult members / victims tend to be educated and intelligent rather than the opposite, seems reasonable when you look at the discussions but of course could be wrong.

It came up just because it can be baffling how intelligent, analytical people can be taken in by the claims of gender ideology, and it makes sense in that context. It's debatable how "cult-like" GI is, but it has some aspects such as cutting off from unbelievers, non-evidenced-based magical thinking and pseudo-scientific arguments.

That makes more sense!

OP had indicated that there were ND individuals in the family (cousins); my enquiry was regarding the difference in not responding being an effective/ineffective strategy between ND (cousins) and NT (DD) children.

The feminists hold up signs championing women's rights and excluding trans-women, so they basically want to genocide all TW and wipe them from existence so they are the truly violent ones and if you don't agree they you're one of the genocidal maniacs <tongue in cheek>

No one is ever born in the wrong body and will never be able to change sex. If they think that they can that isn’t the truth.

Ah, I understand. I can better explain - so I worked with kids in the past (Guides, Scouts, teaching, before stepping back to focus on my own) and did find that non-confrontational methods worked best with kids displaying negative behaviours, whether ND or NT. Obviously if they are doing something dangerous you step in immediately, but I tended to find that backing off, given them space to calm down, and then opening a discussion (how are you feeling now?) always seemed to bring them over more quickly than balling them out for being rude and disrespectful.

The issue here (as I understand it) was the nature and cause of the argument rather than the parenting style in the face of an aggressive outburst - ie the Sc ruling (anything trans related) being something so deeply triggering and distressing for the young person concerned, which is why I drew on my experience with my teen. It has taken years to work out that in this particular circumstance, on this very heated issue and regardless of whether they are ND or NT, you have to accept that it is deeply emotive issue and focus on this (the why, the how to support them in navigating their distress) rather than obsess and rant at them for disrespecting you (which they clearly have). The OP said at the start that her child had left, stormed out and a parent’s fear at that stage is whether they will come back, whether the relationship has been severed.

When they have finally calmed down and returned, it’s a relief, and you just don’t pick the shouting/ranting as the issue you tackle - only to start a new fight by telling them off. You start building a bridge to reconnect so that you can help them manage their distress and avoid a recurrence. Later, often days later, I personally might mention that I was really hurt by the way they spoke to me, but for years I had to bank that and focus on getting my child to that good space. And yes, it did feel like I was in an emotionally abusive relationship where my not giving in might lead to self harming or worse. My child was never directly aggressively abusive, but they coerced and manipulated with the threat of suicide and self harm which, as many DV survivors will tell you, is obviously a form of abuse.

The distress that OP experienced will have been visceral. The fear that she might have lost her child because she dared engage with the topic or didn’t change the News channel quickly enough to avert the whole incident in the first place, will have been gut-wrenching. Those are the eggshells you tiptoe on as a parent of a child navigating this issue, these identity confusions. So in these circumstances, regardless of whether they are ND/NT, and especially because of the loaded nature of the exchange, yes I would always go for de-escalation, even if that means letting go of my pique at the way I have been spoken to during a row.