Well I've just lost my daughter due to the Supreme Court ruling. s

[Lucelady]

So as not to drip feed she's a Ftm trans person and a universty student.
I've just been called a TERF, JKR supporter and transphobic. We've had four years of peace and understanding with her not wanting any surgery or hormones. She listened to the ruling last week and we chatted it through. The last few days she's been glued to the Internet and her phone. Now it's all changed and her 'friends' have called for action. What that action is I've no idea.
She's stormed out.

100%

totally agree
I will; never ever call anyone who is man a girl or vice versa
Nor will I call anyone a they
total nonsense driven by lunatics who are woke or self absorbed

She is a female
Always has been
Always will be
Simples

She is female that she agrees.
The issue is the 'gender persona'. It confusing for others as she doesn't present in a masculine way.

We had a light discussion this afternoon about her rant at me and I got half an apology.

There… knew it would be forthcoming! Only had to wait 4 days in the end! that’s not a bad result, really 🤣

Gender persona doesn’t mean anything does it? Don’t waste time discussing it? Everything is transient.

As I've posted before, I think this is progress in a way - I think it would be ideal for everyone to understand what sex they are and that that's generally what other people care about (at least when it comes to privacy, vulnerable situations where single-sex provision is important, and who you're attracted to) - and then to declare themselves whatever "gender persona" or "identity" they like for those who care, or just navel-gaze about it, whatever. Being transgender should be just that, about gender. If you think gendered interests, looks etc indicate whether you're a man or woman, you're hopelessly sexist and out of date, but keep it separate from actual sex and I think most people will leave you to it.

I did indentify as a Welsh woman this afternoon (I'm half Welsh) and she did laugh. Hopefully the heats gone out of the backlash.
I've been speaking Welsh just to jolly her along. I've not seen anymore news stories.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002b76x?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Interesting discussion on R4 today

Vicky is a diminutive of Victoria. He is not a diminutive of she. XX is not a diminutive of XY. It’s not kind for me to have to share an intimate space with somebody who has a penis and demands to be there. If you don’t have a problem being kind, why can’t you be kind to me instead of the man?

What have I said that's unkind? I haven't been aggressive, called you "insane" or any other name? All I've done is said is something you disagree with and that I dont care if you don't agree, you're entitled to your opinion. Who is this "man" in being kind to instead of you?

Although in regards to "your intimate space":

1. What if the transperson no longer has a penis?
2. How would you know if you were in a bathroom or intimate space with a person with a penis, you can hardly do a check...?
3. What about at home where I assume male guests use your toilet?
4. What about biologically intersex people - there's a type of intersex in particular where you present female, even appearing to have a vulva but internally they have testes and are XY but due to some issue with their bodies being immune to testosterone they appear female. Are they OK because they don't have a penis or not because biologically they carry XY?
5. If a space or someone in it makes the uncomfortable - why don't you just remove yourself from that space until you are comfy?

And.. OPs question wasn't about MTF in "your space" or "women's space" but her FTM child who's pushing her away. To which my advice and opinion would be, respect the adult child's preference as its been consistent for 8 years. And hard as it may be to lose a daughter and gain a son, imo it's better than risking them cutting contact entirely.

What if you don't use OP's post as a chance to post a load of gotchas, as if we've never heard those ridiculous arguments before?

1. They are still a male with male height and male strength. And as a male they still make us feel uncomfortable. It's about privacy and dignity away from the male gaze, not just safety. Also 92% according to medical data, of transwomen, retain their penis and testicles for life. Also, how would we know? Best to keep all males out, regardless of how they identify.
2. Ah, that is our point. And why we want to keep all males out.
3. This is the most stupid argument possible, ffs. Do you invite complete fucking strangers into use your toilet?
4. Intersex people are still either male or female, and they are all well aware what they are, and where they should be. Also, they have asked repeatedly that they not be weaponised in this debate. Please respect their wishes.
5. Why the fuck should WOMEN have to self-exclude from OUR OWN SPACES, just to suit a male? Do you ever stop victim-blaming and simpering for men and putting mens needs before womens? Have a hard long look at yourself! How about these males simple fucking respect womens rights and stay out of our spaces! HOW ABOUT THAT?!??

1 & 2 - we can’t check, that’s why we don’t want men in our spaces. Full stop.

3 I get to choose who uses my bathroom at home. I won’t be sharing the space with them; there’s no chance they’ll up skirt me, or listen to me peeing for kicks, or invade my space to “validate” themselves.

4 Strawman argument. DSDs are fleetingly rare - I know, because my son has one.

5 Yes, of course women should leave their own spaces if men want to use them, it’s obviously how it should be.

i was responding specifically to your comments about being kind to “Vicky”; I’ve already conversed with OP and read all her posts. You’re suggesting she “be kind” by denying her daughter’s biological sex and her own part in that, and that’s not kind to either of them.

What about at home where I assume male guests use your toilet?

Show me you haven't understood literally anything about the point of single-sex public toilets...

When someone wheels this one out as some kind of false analogy pretending that a public loo is no different to your private loo, you know they are either dishonest or haven't understood.

That’s really rude of you and I hope you don’t come across any trans people in your day to day life

Can't you understand that it's pretty rude to claim to be something you are not and can never be, to a person who actually is that thing (a woman), and demand the rights that are accorded to them on that basis? THAT'S rude, as well as selfish, inconsiderate and sexist.

How would you like it if I walked into your house (or toilet) and said "I identify as you, so this is my house and my toilet and I can be here if I like." And if you said "No you're not me, I am" they said "well that's how I FEEL and that matters more than you thinking this is your house, or even it being your house by law. Can't you just be kind? Be kind and agree I'm you or you're a bigot."

Because that's essentially what it is. A male cannot be a woman - except by changing the definition of woman, and by that method anyone can be anything.

OP with a half apology and her laughing at your joke things are hopefully on the right track.
It must be very hard for her to hear people say that there's thing called 'gender' that exists and it can be wrong for her, at a time she is trying to find her identity. Giving her a stable home, stick to facts and one with humour in it will hopefully give her space to develop. I wouldn't make a big thing of it, just fill the space with positive ideas going forward - things you can both look forward to - the summer!

It’s none of those things and the more time I spend on mumsnet the more I realise that people on here really need to get out and actually meet and talk to some trans people - in real life, not on the extreme fringes of the internet. This level of vitriol is so unhealthy.

I had a MTF colleague. There was nothing feminine about him, he was a huge hulking bloke, obviously so.
Quite aggressive, quite intimidating and very physically strong. Anyone would clock him as a man at a fair distance away.
So my meeting him helped peak me, I had been very be kind before.
I could not see him as a woman, did not feel safe with him in toilet or changing room and those were downstairs in a corridor where I worked. I used to go to a different building to the toilet.

Do you not think that people who don't have a gender identity are trans?

If not, what is it that you think makes someone trans?

Vitriol????

Where? Or do you not understand the word?

''Vitriol''. ''Extreme fringes''. No wonder your side wanted 'no debate', you have no facts to back your claims, only ideology. You demand everyone else goes along with what you want for no better reason than because you say so. Any pushback is framed as hate.

I think when people respond with what you call “vitriol” - it’s actually an annoyed reaction to being called rude and bigoted for understanding reality, by people who clearly don’t. TW (most of them these day, but not all and less so in the past) are claiming and appropriating my actual lived experience, reality and, if you like (though I don’t use this word about being a woman), “identity”. If I did that to someone on the basis of ethnicity, age etc or even being trans, I reckon they would be annoyed. It’s only sex where this is supposedly fine and dandy. And it just so happens that with sex, it causes huge problems for females and not for males. What a coincidence.

And btw I do know and am related to trans-identifying people. I treat them with the same basic respect due to all other people and am certainly not “vitriolic”, but it is not respectful to me if they expect me to deny reality.

instead of just telling people off, could you actually explain why anyone should be treated as if they have changed sex when that is not possible?