Tips for dining with very quiet people

[nomorequinoa]

I volunteer with a gardening group that helps tend a local park and have made friends with a couple of people there. Some of those involved are very quiet types. I've been helping out since last summer and there are several people who've avoided eye contact or just nodded and then ignored me or turned away when I've said hello or tried to start a conversation.

The group has occasional social events and there is a group dinner in a pub organised next week. I booked a place. I've just been sent the table plan (the woman who organises these get-togethers always does a table plan that we're expected to stick to, apparently) and I'm positioned between one person who has never said a word to me and one who has barely said hello. Opposite me is someone with hearing difficulties who doesn't communicate easily.

One of the friends I've made through the group has said that once the meal is over we're allowed to move and I'm to head up to her end of the table. I get the feeling that people are expected to take it in turns to sit with the quiet people.

I'm not a particularly garrulous sort of person, but I was raised to make polite conversation. I'm beginning to get nervous about the event. Do I try to start up a conversation or would that be intrusive?

Your irritation seems focused on the quiet people who are "kidding themselves that they have friends and a social life," and not with the person who has stuck you, presumably as a newcomer with low social capital, on the oddballs table.

I didn't use those words. I said What do quiet/ shy/ introverted people get from going out to dinner with other people and sitting there silently, not participating? Do they persuade themselves that by going out with other people they have friends and a social life? I find it vaguely abusive.

I asked the question because I'm genuinely not sure what anyone would get out of going to a social event and not socialising. The abusive element is the silent assumption that other people, like me, exist in some kind of therapeutic or support role and should be prepared to compromise their own needs in order that others should be comfortable. I'll happily go along with it without issue in the context of the gardening work (see my comment upthread) but going out for a meal is very different.

Instead of asking to be treated differently to the other club

This isn't a club, it's a group of volunteers who support the professional gardeners who are in charge of a local public garden.

The abusive element is the silent assumption that other people, like me, exist in some kind of therapeutic or support role and should be prepared to compromise their own needs in order that others should be comfortable.

But, again, unless there is a huge drip feed coming, it's not the quiet people asking for you to sit by them, is it? They're not asking for you to be their conversational saviour with your sparkling wit. Being asked to sit where you don't really want to sit for, say, an hour, is hardly "compromising on your needs" FFS. Don't worry, you won't catch quiet off these people.

As a serious suggestion, you could just mingle between courses with the people you want to talk to.

They don’t seem quiet and introverted to me. More rude and socially inept. I couldn’t imagine completely ignoring someone who was trying to make conversion with me in a social setting even if I didn’t like them. Being introverted is getting energy from more solitary activities and alone time. It’s not being quiet. I’m introverted but can socialise and I’m not pig ignorant enough to ignore someone. They shouldn’t be given allowances for rudeness.

Watch out, your ignorance is showing.

No. Too many Mners confuse introversion with poor social skills, shyness, rudeness, or misanthropy. An introvert may also suffer from all of these things, obviously, but they will not be because he or she is an introvert.

I can be chatty, but we all have a social battery and at 52 that will run low if talking to a brick wall.
I have good will and a good heart towards quieter folk in social situations and will always include them in conversation.
However, if they won’t respond or say “hello” back, I’m done. That is rude.
I envisaged myself in your situation, OP, making an effort and then all the life draining out of me when no response.
It’s not good enough really, but you don’t know until you try and then it’s too late.
You never know, you might be surprised, but if not, you can mingle between courses.

And what would be the reason why a very quiet person would join a volunteer gardening group, and come along to social events, if they were being, to quote a pp, "pig ignorant" and rudely not talking by deliberate choice to people whose company they had chosen? A voluntary group, not a job or somewhere they have to be?

There is just no psychological validity in joining a group voluntarily, attending non compulsory social events, if you are being deliberately rude in not talking to anyone there. The only salient explanation is that the person finds talking exceptionally difficult but wants to be included. That means they are probably neurodivergent and likely have selective mutism. Neither of which is their fault or their choice but a symptom of social anxiety.

There is a difference between ordinary introversion and social anxiety that precludes communication in situations where it is expected, and neither is intentionally rude.

I’ve been in this situation a few times with late DH at golf club dinners etc. I really enjoy good conversation as part of a hopefully civilised life, and unless someone is burdened with autism or extreme introversion consider it bad manners not to make an effort. It drove me to drink to get through the evening.

Barbara Cartland’s daughters (yes her!) were brought up to talk through social occasions from an early age, even if they didn’t want to,to become fully rounded people.

How ironic! Can you not see that you yourself are judging those of us whose social anxiety manifests as talking too much in social situations which make us nervous?

Considering one has hearing issues you are coming across as a bit of a twat to be honest OP. Just don't go, or refuse to accept the seating plan.

The only salient explanation is that the person finds talking exceptionally difficult but wants to be included. That means they are probably neurodivergent and likely have selective mutism. Neither of which is their fault or their choice but a symptom of social anxiety.

It's not the only salient explanation for why someone would not participate in normal social chat to neighbours at a social event. Ageism, sexism, racism, low IQ, loss of hearing, MH issues, religious issues (Jewish friends of mine were shunned at a recent social event), anti-social personality, in a bad mood, grieving, don't like the look of you, holding some imaginary grudge, very hungover, just had a terrible row — it could be anything. I once had a man at a conference dinner event turn his back and ignore me for the evening because he didn't like my boss. Because you have an ND child you see everything through the lens of neurodiversity but it's not always about that.

I get this at work - I’m always put next to the difficult people as I’m seen as a safe pair of hands to manage them. Sometimes warmth is better than trying to make conversation; comments that don’t require a response, but that make them feel included. “This soup is delicious” with a friendly smile, rather than open questions.

My mum was a chatterbox, and hated silence. I can do small talk, but am quite happy to sit in quiet companionship if required.

Yes, the people accused of talking too much are probably just filling in the yawning gaps the socially anxious person leaves, which makes the 'talker' feel very uncomfortable.

None of those examples (bar hearing impairment, which is already identified in one of these "quiet" people) would explain why someone routinely attends a voluntary group, routinely opts in to a optional night out, and then routinely doesn't speak to anyone there.

Your examples only work for directed non-speaking, singling out the person you are not speaking to - eg not speaking to a Jewish family because you are antisemitic. Or for not speaking at a particular occasion, for example have previously been more chatty but your parent recently died and you are grieving.

If a person is known for always being quiet at these events, yet still they show up, that suggests they enjoy attending and are not angry at everyone and not talking to them because they are being deliberately rude, racist or whatever. That they keep showing up and are presumably not forced to suggests that they aren't actually anti -social, as in not wanting to spend time with people.

I maintain that neurodiversity (and deafness) make by far more sense than deliberate rudeness here.

Not “them”. The behaviour.
Being given the silent treatment at home it is considered a form of abuse.
Obviously it’s just the way some people are and not intended to offend. It doesn’t make the end result any nicer for the Ops evening.

I'm not sure I agree with you. My grandfather spent his later years in largely silent contempt for the world at large (he was racist and sexist) but did enjoy gardening and at one point had a lovely garden and an allotment. He would probably have attended this voluntary group after he had to move to a flat without a garden. He might well have attended a social event, too, in the hope of finding someone who shared his prejudices, and would have probably found a reason to shun those at the table next to him if they didn't approve.

Again, you're enjoining everyone else to be sensitive, interpret/ diagnose any apparently anti-social behaviour and accommodate it, despite any discomfort or they might feel or any loss to themselves that might require.

"Again, you're enjoining everyone else to be sensitive, interpret/ diagnose any apparently anti-social behaviour and accommodate it, despite any discomfort or they might feel or any loss to themselves that might require."

I am not, really, asking people to accommodate - though to be fair your thread was asking for tips on how to speak with quiet people! I am asking people not to jump to negative conclusions about why someone finds speaking difficult. So many people feel like it has to be rudeness, has to be directed at them personally, and they are justified in "calling it out", without having any idea at all of how massively damaging that sort of approach can be to someone who functions on the edge of society and who has been repeatedly told how rude and inadequate they are throughout their life, and who is just seeking a space where they are accepted.

I don't care, and have said so before on this thread, if people like you make any effort with people like my DC. All I care about is that you (not you specifically, all the confident communicators on this and other threads who go around 'speaking as they find' and 'calling out rude behaviour') don't destroy them. Ignore them, that's fine. Just don't be nasty.

My sister-in-law barely speaks in group situations. She doesn't even say hello unless prompted. She's a nice, kind person but I have come to the conclusion over the years that she was just never told as a child that not greeting people and not doing even very basic social talk in a group situation can be considered rude. She has rarely left her local area which probably doesn't help.

I just take the initiative now. "Hello SIL, how are you?" Nice to see you". Or stuff that doesn't need an answer as pp said "The casserole looks great!" Then she can just fall silent for the rest of the meal/visit. I honestly don't think she actually dislikes me. We have once or twice bonded over doing an activity (I brought some colouring once!)

It's a shame really. If you can draw her out she has interesting stuff to say.

DH is certainly as shy as she is but DID get the memo that making zero effort isn't OK. People like him and say he's a "good listener".

Honestly, if you feel so strongly about this you are feeling a bit abused, you could either ask for the table arrangements to be altered, or not go.
I doubt, in your frame of mind, neither you, nor the people sitting either side of you, are in for a relaxing social meal out.

This. Can you contact the organiser and say you have been placed among three people you have struggled to socialise with on numerous occasions and would find it a lot more enjoyable to sit with a friend.

May as well ask. It's unnecessary to create a seating plan for something like this.

Being given the silent treatment at home it is considered a form of abuse.

Yes, when it's deliberately intended to abuse. Totally irrelevant to the OP's gardening group dinner. This is just some people who are either very socially awkward or ND. OP's post is suggesting that these people daring to attend this event is abusive.

It's the OP herself who sounds like the bully here, if anyone. She says, I'll repeat: "Do they persuade themselves that by going out with other people they have friends and a social life?" It's like a teenage mean girl saying "as if someone like you could join in and feel included! As if!"

You're part of a bigger table aren't you? So talk to those who are opposite and to the left or right of the silent ones.

I agree about not tolerating being used as the social support human. You are presumably paying for the dinner and have the right to enjoy and look forward to it.

Not unreasonable at all if that what's happening. But the OP is directing her grievance primarily at the quiet people themselves, which isn't fair unless it is they who are demanding she sit on their table (which doesn't appear to be the case). They have just as much right to attend the dinner as OP, however odd the OP finds it that they might want to attend.