Friend has a horrible child or is this normal?

[BackoffSusan]

We've come away on holiday with friends and they have a 4 year old that relentlessly torments and taunts my 4 year old. They seem dismissive of his behaviour and think "the kids are just winding each other up". I think that their kid is just a horrible kid but maybe I'm being precious. Am I? Are kids normally like this at this age? Some examples:
Deliberately destroying my son's den to upset him, whilst saying "im going to break your den", deliberately breaking his toy whilst saying your toy is broken, mine isn't, snatching DS toys out of his hands and refusing to give them back, whilst saying I've got your toy, you can't have it back, chasing after him with some toy scissors saying "im going to cut you and all your toys" and pretending to do so, pushing DS or doing something mean on purpose when he thinks noone is watching & then when DS gets upset he then cries and lies and says DS has hit him, constantly telling DS "im better than you, you're no good at this, you're too small, not strong, not good, I've got this and you haven't". Constantly telling tales. Deliberately doing things he knows DS doesnt like to upset him - DS is quite vocal in saying please dont do that i dont like it, its not nice and this kid just says "im going to do it" It's relentless. Is this normal for a 4 year old? To be deliberately mean and spiteful? Is it a phase? Today both kids attended a class. Friends kid has had more lessons so is at much higher level. He came out waving his medals taunting DS with look what I have, you don't have any, I'm better than you, you're not getting one. DS got upset so I just took him to one side to explain it just takes time to progress and it doesn't matter about the medals. Meanwhile friends kid is following us carrying on with the taunting. He's like it all the time. I snapped at him today and told him his behaviour isn't very kind and he needed to stop. Because his parents just ignore it. Needless to say I won't be holidaying with them again. Any advice on how to manage the last few days. I've tried to keep them apart and just watch them very closely when together but I've had enough.

Then fall out over it.

Your child comes first. He’s trapped in a house with a bully…. and has no power to do anything about it so you need to.

Presumably you are good friends with this couple? Can you speak to one of them and say you get that they are little and learning but you could do with some support to step in as it’s making your sons holiday miserable.

The only acceptable response to that is to step up… if they don’t I’d honestly spend my days separately or go home.

My daughter has a friend who went to the same nursery and they both went on to go to the same school. They always played lovely together at nursery and my daughter never complained about her.

Just before they started school she started to make comments like ‘my coat is nicer than yours’ and once they started school she got even worse with it. It felt relentless every morning before school she would knock my daughter’s confidence before they had even started the school day. Everything was a competition and she always told my daughter whatever she had was better. It sounded very similar where I felt like she was purposely trying to make my daughter sad and she also ended up hitting, pushing and she even bit her once.

This was all in the first half term of starting school and now they are still best friends and my daughter rarely complains about anything she does and I also see a massive difference when they are together. Her friend was obviously struggling with the transition to school and was taking it out on the one person she knew at school. It caused me a lot of stress at the time and I did at times feel like she was just a mean child who’s parents were letting her get away with too much, but now I see that she was just struggling to cope with a big change.

Hopefully it is just a stage and they can go back to playing nicely again after the holiday.

his parents just ignore it.

Sounds like this is the crucial part, OP.

Poor kid. Sounds like he's being raised very badly.

We had this on a weekend away with large group of Dh friends. One Lovely couple extremely high powered but totally wet parents. Dd came storming down to complain their kid had shoved her off a bed. They were quite old for that behaviour mid primary. The parents kind of sat there awkwardly. Dd who is usually polite said loudly “cannot
believe I have been shoved off a bed and the parents are doing nothing about it” 😀 cracked Dh and I up was awks though.

@TheaBrandt1 😂😂

I'm so sorry for your ds. We had similar when my dc was little and her friend was awful to her and other kids. The parents were very passive even when he hit my dc over the head with a garden tool and pushed dc off a high bunk bed. He would deliberately target other kids too. As it is now he's older and has been diagnosed but his parents did nothing to steer him when he was a violent little one. For example the most they ever did was a few minutes time out with chocolate buttons! Anyway my question was how does his parent interact with him? Seems like they are doing their own thing if it's down to you to supervise the boys. Are they there? On holiday it's so different to being at home and having a couple of hours play dates. Maybe the boy is totally out of his comfort zone. Maybe he needs time with his parents. But absolutely they should be onto this. It's not fair on your child.

Nope. Not normal. Although I would take him aside and tell him off. There was a child being mean to my child and didn't stop when told to. Parents were useless as well. I took him aside and ripped into him. I do not care if it will destroy the other child's self esteem..no one treats my child like that (that kid was fine btw and became my child's friend). Kids need boundaries, and if their parents aren't able to set them then you can for your child. That what parenting is.

I also have a nephew from my husband's side who is very hyper and aggressive. His parent's are of the thought school that 'oh he is just being a boy and that's what boys do' (actual words) and I think, not really, atleast they show empathy and ability to check on others when they have hurt them. He kept hitting my daughter. I have told her many times that she is allowed to hit him back but she wouldn't even hurt a fly and would rather get beaten that beat others. In the end when he hit my daughter I told him that if he does it next time I will make her hit him or hit him myself. The hitting behaviour stopped after that.

Plenty of 4 year old DCs are not mature enough to show empathy. Many won’t get what they have done is upsetting another child and if they do see it, they don’t respond. They carry on in their own world. Many dc need to be shown another way. When parents don’t guide and correct dc don’t learn. However some dc never show empathy - to human beings or pets! These dc are of huge concern.

Empathy is not innate to most kids and needs to be taught. Kids need to be shown through consistent reinforcement like “You hurt Tommy and now he’s very sad. Go and say sorry and we are going home now.” He needs to be watched so his parents can act immediately when they see him getting worked up or if he hurts someone. The fact that this kid enjoys hurting yours is a really bad sign for his future behaviours.

@Fraaances Plenty of 4 year olds don’t actually understand “sorry” either. They don’t yet have the ability to connect the feelings of others to their actions at some time later on. Sorry is just a word and is very easy to say and not understand why you are saying it. They need to be mature enough to understand feelings which of course can vary widely. This navigation of feelings can be very hard.

Some of what the DC is doing here is boasting. Dc down generations have done this. Again it’s not understanding the effect on others but many DC don’t understand about being humble. Parents big up dc all the time and over praise, so of course a 4 year old is very proud to be top and winning prizes. Some adults are not humble and I’m not sure everyone should be either! It’s more a case of the DC not aiming his glee at the Ops DS. His parents would no doubt be delighted and praise even more so navigation of this for an 4 year old is tricky. Overall it’s guidance that’s needed.

@TizerorFizz
I agree wrt the meaninglessness of the word 'sorry'.

From the description of this boy's demeanour toward the other child, I'd say he's a very unhappy child, possibly because of something his father is contributing to the home atmosphere or the family dynamic. Children need to be guided consistently toward empathy and kindness. Those values need to be emphasised and modeled in the family. This may not be happening in this child's home.

The OP's child needs protection regardless of the cause, though.

You may or may not be correct.

but i personally am of the thought train of 'why the fuck should my kids suffer through other people's shitty parenting! ".

They need help, but us fellow parents are not psychologists or counsellors. We must protect our own children from being harmed or treated badly just because 'Eddy has issues'

I always explain to my children why the little unboundaried master nasty may behave the way he does afterwards, but to hell if I'm letting my kids be little victims so I can virtue signal to the world!

You deal with it by calling it out. Every single time.

We don't hit. We don't break things. We apologise when we hurt someone. You are being unkind. Stop doing that...... repeat, repeat, repeat.

The kid isn't being parented.

You really need to stand up for your kid, OP. If your friend doesn't like it, tough shit. Your poor little one is being bullied on holiday and they need to know you are in their corner.

As well as engineering time apart from this child, coach yours to stand up for himself.

Tell him it is ok to say “that’s a rude thing to say” “I don’t believe you” “you are showing off “ and “I don’t care”.

Talk to your Ds, ask him how he feels about it, and what he thinks this boy is doing wrong. And tell him it’s ok to say that to him. And he won’t be in trouble from you if he does.

If it’s so easy to stop dc hurting others, and becoming lovely compliant people, the prisons would be empty. Explaining all the time goes in one ear and out of the other with some dc. They cannot engage with the notions of kindness and hurt, let alone modify behaviour. These are emotions and responses they do not understand. At 6-7 if things haven’t improved there are big issues ahead.

You cannot tell his parents how to parent. All anyone can do is decide what to do with their own child and decide who they play with. Dc can easily be removed from a situation that’s not acceptable but on holiday if clearly sours parental friendship. In the future, there probably isn’t a friendship. Most of us are friendly with parents who parent like we do.

I would make excuses for no more play dates nevermind a holiday together. It's bullying and it's being allowed. Tell him friends don't treat you that way. Even at 4 though they're young they know right from wrong and their child's behaviour will get worse because it's not being redirected. My 4yr old has done some of these things, not with scissors and not with breaking toys and snatching another one. The ner ner im better than you is definitely something my 4yr old is doing but we redirect it and tell her why. They don't redirect that poor behaviour and don't explain why we don't behave that way is in itself a reason never to have the child near yours again. If you can stay friends and keep the kids apart than you may be able to do that. If they ask you why, tell them why. Your ds gets upset at the teasing from a friend and the damage to his things so it's best we keep them apart until they're older and not in this stage anymore.

This behaviour is not normal. It's picked up by watching others, in my opinion.

I've read your replies @BackoffSusan and I'm wondering why you can't leave early - is there a reason why you have to stay with this terrible child and his awful parents?

There are lots of children like this and there can be a habit of tables turning when they are older and yours being the problem one. It is horrible but can usually be managed without you having to discipline the child. I can’t help but feel you are behaving rather strangely. If a child was, for example, mocking my child over the medals, I would ignore them, leap on a wall and shout I’m the king of the castle and you are the dirty rascals, engage them in doing something together. Maybe then do a game not standing on the pavement lines, singing if you’re happy and you know it clap your hands etc. The other child may well join in, if not they are unable to focus their negativity on your child because you two are having fun.

Sounds like a horrible child and unfortunately there are lots of them about. A child showed similar behaviour to my son who ended up scared of him as he was physically hurting him and when I told the parent nicely that they needed a break from each other, the parents became nasty. Some people are blind to their little darling's bad behaviour. You don't need a child like that in his life so if I were you, I would say you've found the last few days stressful and you want to enjoy some family time together before you are home and back to a busy routine with work and school.

Sounds like a baby Trump in the making.

Thanks for everyone's replies, it's been really helpful to have other people's perspectives. I'm home now thank goodness, what a week.

We managed to salvage the holiday and the friendship. It came to a head on Thursday. As soon as the kids were up, it started all over again. Their DS constantly winding up mine - "im going to smash your den, your toy is broken, mine isn't, I'm going to take your toy", and grabbing DS arm when he's sat at the table trying to eat breakfast. DS telling him to go away and give him some space. Other kid not listening. Parents telling him to give mine some space and he still wasn't listening. I had to intervene.

With DS ASD, he has quite a low tolerance for most things anyway, and we have in the past dealt with his aggressive behaviour which has dramatically lessened in the last 12 months. The best way to describe it, is that most kids start the day with an empty glass but when DS wakes up, he is half full and I could sense he was about to spill out over the edge and go ballistic, so I took him to another room and we just did our own thing for the rest of the day and cancelled any joint plans. I was annoyed because it looked like i was punishing him and that wasnt fair, i thought the other kid should have been removed from the situation. The parents knew I was upset so we just tried to keep them apart and I think they must have spoken to their son because he was much better over the last 2 days.

I think I know what the problem was though. Their dad didn't think there was any issue - that he was just being a typical 4 year old and that we should just leave them to "figure it out". Whereas I was more of the school of thought that you needed to give them the tools to figure it out, and guide them (parenting). I totally understand that 4 year olds brag, boast and I do think that's normal. But there was relentless antagonising, being deliberately unkind, taunting towards my son. When he got a reaction from my son and knew that he'd upset him, he'd go and try to do it again. I also think that because the other parents know about my son's ASD diagnosis, they prefer to think that he's the problem (overly sensitive).

When my son got back home, he said he liked his friend but sometimes found it difficult because he was "nasty, didn't share or listen to him when he said to stop, and kept bothering him and wouldn't give him any space". Which was fair. So we won't be seeing them so much anymore, until things improve.

Do you really think another 4 year old can be sensitive to ASD traits in your DS though? And then alter their own behaviour accordingly? He’s really not old enough for that. So, yes, swerve for the moment.

So toxic dad who winds up his own kid and the kid never gets to "win"....as I and many others suspected.

His idea of "letting them sort it out themselves" (to toxic dad) boils down to who will be the Alpha because that is all toxic dad knows, and he is teaching the same to his son.