Friend has a horrible child or is this normal?

[BackoffSusan]

We've come away on holiday with friends and they have a 4 year old that relentlessly torments and taunts my 4 year old. They seem dismissive of his behaviour and think "the kids are just winding each other up". I think that their kid is just a horrible kid but maybe I'm being precious. Am I? Are kids normally like this at this age? Some examples:
Deliberately destroying my son's den to upset him, whilst saying "im going to break your den", deliberately breaking his toy whilst saying your toy is broken, mine isn't, snatching DS toys out of his hands and refusing to give them back, whilst saying I've got your toy, you can't have it back, chasing after him with some toy scissors saying "im going to cut you and all your toys" and pretending to do so, pushing DS or doing something mean on purpose when he thinks noone is watching & then when DS gets upset he then cries and lies and says DS has hit him, constantly telling DS "im better than you, you're no good at this, you're too small, not strong, not good, I've got this and you haven't". Constantly telling tales. Deliberately doing things he knows DS doesnt like to upset him - DS is quite vocal in saying please dont do that i dont like it, its not nice and this kid just says "im going to do it" It's relentless. Is this normal for a 4 year old? To be deliberately mean and spiteful? Is it a phase? Today both kids attended a class. Friends kid has had more lessons so is at much higher level. He came out waving his medals taunting DS with look what I have, you don't have any, I'm better than you, you're not getting one. DS got upset so I just took him to one side to explain it just takes time to progress and it doesn't matter about the medals. Meanwhile friends kid is following us carrying on with the taunting. He's like it all the time. I snapped at him today and told him his behaviour isn't very kind and he needed to stop. Because his parents just ignore it. Needless to say I won't be holidaying with them again. Any advice on how to manage the last few days. I've tried to keep them apart and just watch them very closely when together but I've had enough.

Why did you choose to holiday with them?

Sounds awful and stressful. My DD of a similar age sometimes behaves in some of these ways, so I wouldn't say the child is horrible, but if/when this happens, I know its because she is overwhelmed by a situation and I will remove her straight away to calm her down. As others have said, the problem here is the parents!

@CherryBlossom321 we've been friends for a long time and holidayed with them before even as recently as last summer but had not previously experienced this behaviour from their son.

I'd probably pinch him really hard when no one was looking. 😆

@BackoffSusan Sounds like he’s copying others and not being corrected. I don’t like parents not correcting poor behaviour like this because it can escalate - what next? I know he’s only 4 but it’s time to not make excuses and make an effort to stop nasty behaviour. I think you have a different style of parenting from them so are you compatible? So either you speak to the parents, deal
with the child yourself, put up with it or distance yourself. You might need to do 1, 2 and 4. Or just 4. It’s a shame for the child they think it doesn’t matter.

@Redpeppers60 I think every kid has their moments including mine. But this is constant. My son definitely has had his moments on this holiday. It's usually when he's been provoked by the other kid (other kid takes one of his toys off him, and runs off going look what I've got, you can't have it back) but I still pull my son up on his behaviour, yes you can be angry but no you can't hit your friend or throw something at him. It's just been difficult because DS will ask for it back and other kid says no. And then I end up intervening. But today other kids parents bought them both the same toy and this kid deliberately breaks DS toy and says yours is broken now but mine works. I fixed it but I thought it was a mean thing to do.

I had this happen with a boy from nursery, got friendly with his mum and we had a few playdates, but I realised he bullied my DS so stopped inviting them around. I'm not confrontational but eventually had to tell her that the boys didn't get on, so better to skip playdates. She clearly thought I was mollycoddling my DS, but I didn't think he needed to be a punch bag for her kid - who was horrible, though I didn't tell her that. Luckily they went to different primary schools.

So I'd tell them sooner than later that the boys don't get on, so better that they don't play together, and you may lose the friendship, but your DS will be much happier.

He sounds awful and yes I've encountered children like this. I just work hard to keep my dcs away from them. Personally I never go on holiday with other people's kids either, it's much nicer to just be a family unit.

I had two friends with "challenging" children.

The first one I absolutely adored (and still do) her son ended up having additional needs. It was quite obvious to me from the off but I think she was in denial. We had a cooling off period and now her child can express themselves better and regulate their emotions with more success, the behaviour improved and things are now fine between our children.

The second one was an utter horror. Very precocious and lost his child like innocence very young. Had the attitude of a sulky teen aged 5. Foul temper and damn right rude to adults and other children. He has this real hostile streak. The kind of kid I couldn't comfortably leave my child alone with. I'd never quite trust what he'd do. He's got worse and worse , he's now 11 and generally a bit of a bully. I accidentally on purpose ghosted the mum in the end. She was a nice enough woman but completely lacked any self awareness. She was oblivious to the existence of her own child. She had him in her 40s, only child and her life carried on as before she had him. He was an ignored child really. Very self absorbed lady. I think a lot of his behaviour was attention seeking. It's sad really. But my job is to look out for the welfare of my own children and when his nasty behaviour was affecting my children - it's not fair to put them through that when they don't have to be.

Put your boy first. Don't bother being overly polite and doing long winded explanations. Keep it brief "Toby is being mean. Don't listen to him. He's not your parent" is sometimes better than bending over yourself to use "correct" terminology.

I get you re: the mum. In my first scenario my lovely friend would say "oh the boys are being such hard work today!" "Or oh they're squabbling again!" And I could have cried with frustration. I wanted to scream "no THEY aren't !" "It's your child!!!". That's why I had the cooling off period. I didn't want to fall out.

You can try to talk to her (but most people will naturally get defensive when it comes to their children) or you can have a cooling off period

So sorry this is running your holiday, OP. And your DSs.

I don't believe any child is inherently horrible or bad. He is a child. His sense of empathy isn't developed yet. He is learning how to interact with others in a socially acceptable way at that age.

Unfortunately, his parents aren't doing their job. They're the horrible ones for not teaching or discipling their son. You obviously need to keep your child separate, but this poor boy will end up angry and isolated with poor self esteem as he will end up with no friends if he continues like this as he grows up.

The only other alternative is that he's troubled for other reasons we don't know about. Chronic lying and bullying can signal a child with a lot going on.

Is there any chance he's hearing stuff like that at home? Things like 'you're weak, you're not good' etc feel quite learned to me.

I'd be excellent at very quietly reprimanding him for his behaviour

I've experienced similar with a niece the same age as my dd2. She does it more so when she is tired and her dad does try to intervene but mum is a wet wipe and talks him down. I have to closely supervise their play and intervene often.

I think you are doing right by intervening and I absolutely would tell him off. I'd also never go on holiday with them again and make plans to do some separate events, so spend one meal a day together but do other things. It's not fair on your son to be exposed to the other child's constant teasing.

@Sunnydays25 yes that sounds familiar. They think we mollycoddle DS and he is a sensitive soul. He can be quite passive and he's more on the shy side so I think the other kid has seen him as an easy target. They tend to get on better outside, so maybe we don't see them so much except for outdoor playdates and hope their kid grows out of it.

One of my friend's DSs was like this, I tried to play it down. When my DS was about 13 years old we'd had a day with them and I'd said to DS how patient he'd been with the other boy as he'd had an off day (was trying to trip DS up, wouldn't talk, constantly patting/hitting his own mum's arm at times to stop her enjoying the walk).
My DS just said, "he's always like that". He was right, I have avoided her son since, he is just not a nice person to be around, always looking to hurt others.
My friend has since bought a dog saying it's for him but he has no interest and it's really so she has something cute to cuddle and enjoy.

Your friends are shit parents. I’d just say it like it is to your friends “can you have a word with your son because he’s being cruel to ours and it’s upsetting to watch”.

Then never holiday with them again.

It is odd though, we has a playdate at theirs a couple of weeks ago and there was none of this. The kids played so nicely for a few hours. No intervention. Maybe it's been too much for then being in the same place together.

Are you sharing a room with your son?
If not let him use your room and dogedly keep him away from your son.

I couldn't be around his parents either.
Horrible lesson.

These kids aren't 2 and he's been horrid deliberately.

I hope you told your 2 year old to stop being a bully as well.

Could the little boy have autism or adhd?

I agree. Simply put - some children are just horrible I'm afraid.

There is usually a reason behind it. Lack of parenting (such as "Billy's just expressing his "raw personality " 😉) sometimes much sadder reasons. But we can't always be the hero and excuse their "strong will" - if your own child is being harmed and the. Other parents aren't willing to tackle it. You must remove your child from the dynamics.

I find these horrors usually end up with very few friends as they get older.

@Fishandchipsareyum no he doesn't have any SEN issues. My son has a diagnosis of high functioning asd. But I don't think this issue is related to SEN, it's a kid who is deliberately mean all of the time to another kid. If anything DS feels a stronger sense of injustice and is more upset by what he perceives as injustice (his friend behaving un a way that's unkind). I don't use my son's ASD to justify any bad behaviour. We try to find a way to tackle it when issue arise.

@Fishandchipsareyum even if he does it's zero excuse for bullying.

Read the threads on here about grown adult relationships with men with adhd or a diagnosis who treat people and family like shit and the comments that "it's no excuse" so no different for children.

Yes he may have different ways of expressing his frustration or lack of attention but lashing out and being a brat is not acceptable behaviour regardless.

Or maybe he is has been brought up to be a little shit who can do what he wants.

As a parent of kids with both autism and ADHD, it pisses me off when people throw this out as a reason for being a horror. My kids were never allowed to behave this way, and if they did then they were removed by me. And frankly, who the hell cares if he has ND issues?! Not the poor kid he is bullying!

For fuck's sake.

No. Stand up for your child and tell them they have the right to, too. Don’t expose your kid to mean people without visibly putting a stop to it as if it’s ok, you do not want him growing up a doormat who thinks he has to accept bullying.