Friend has a horrible child or is this normal?

[BackoffSusan]

We've come away on holiday with friends and they have a 4 year old that relentlessly torments and taunts my 4 year old. They seem dismissive of his behaviour and think "the kids are just winding each other up". I think that their kid is just a horrible kid but maybe I'm being precious. Am I? Are kids normally like this at this age? Some examples:
Deliberately destroying my son's den to upset him, whilst saying "im going to break your den", deliberately breaking his toy whilst saying your toy is broken, mine isn't, snatching DS toys out of his hands and refusing to give them back, whilst saying I've got your toy, you can't have it back, chasing after him with some toy scissors saying "im going to cut you and all your toys" and pretending to do so, pushing DS or doing something mean on purpose when he thinks noone is watching & then when DS gets upset he then cries and lies and says DS has hit him, constantly telling DS "im better than you, you're no good at this, you're too small, not strong, not good, I've got this and you haven't". Constantly telling tales. Deliberately doing things he knows DS doesnt like to upset him - DS is quite vocal in saying please dont do that i dont like it, its not nice and this kid just says "im going to do it" It's relentless. Is this normal for a 4 year old? To be deliberately mean and spiteful? Is it a phase? Today both kids attended a class. Friends kid has had more lessons so is at much higher level. He came out waving his medals taunting DS with look what I have, you don't have any, I'm better than you, you're not getting one. DS got upset so I just took him to one side to explain it just takes time to progress and it doesn't matter about the medals. Meanwhile friends kid is following us carrying on with the taunting. He's like it all the time. I snapped at him today and told him his behaviour isn't very kind and he needed to stop. Because his parents just ignore it. Needless to say I won't be holidaying with them again. Any advice on how to manage the last few days. I've tried to keep them apart and just watch them very closely when together but I've had enough.

I'm amazed you've not lost it with the parents already tbh!

Yeh I think I will try to keep them apart as much as possible and will give their son a telling off when they don't. I don't think it's helped being in the same accommodation. DS is not perfect but he's not mean and has a strong sense of justice so he's getting equally frustrated that this kid isn't being pulled up for bad behaviour.

Given the update, this kid sounds insufferable.

I would be having a serious conversation with the parents immediately. They clearly need called out on this.

Alternatively, tell your son to hit the other kid the next time he acts like that. 😆

My advice would be to stop exposing your poor DS to any more of this totally unacceptable behaviour. The parents are not your friends if they allow such bullying. You might as well tell them asap what you think of their parenting and their son, there is no way the friendship can survive - unless you are willing to subject your DS to more bullying, but I am sure you won't.

I think you should just leave. If it’s causing tension anyway you don’t have to pretend it’s all ok.

@Downthemarshes today I did. After I had picked my son up from his class, he was pretty upset because he found it hard today.
And the other kid came out taunting him with his medals and the whole "I've got all of these and you have none, im better etc" and would not f off. So I told him to stop being unkind and stop taunting him. We were meant to go out for dinner together but I told his parents we were going home and they should eat out alone and give us some space. So they did.

You've got this! Sounds like you're managing a difficult situation as well as possible. Keep your child separate and keep cool. Not the best holiday, sounds like you'll need another to get over it.

I echo PPs, keep the kids apart. He sounds a right brat.
I also agree that if he does stuff in front of you and the parent don't comment, you should.

@NC28 he really is insufferable. I love kids but this one is a little s**t. To be fair today DS did hit the kid in retaliation. I did tell off my DS but I did think the other kid probably deserved it.

@Marylou2 oh you know what it really has been a car crash from the beginning. I can't say too much because it would be too outing. But think along the lines of shit weather, sick kids, theft, loss & shit accommodation. I spent 1 day crying and I'm not a crier. Anyway, learnt a life lesson. Not doing this again.

Can you just go home or are you tied to flights?

@Downthemarshes no can't go home yet. 3 nights left so not long and I've planned to be out as much as possible for rest of the trip. I'm also just going to watch the kid like a hawk and pull him up on any bad behaviour because someone needs to explain it to him.

I mean the occasional brag or taunt is pretty normal - I've caught my DS1 doing it to DS2 despite them usually being the best of friends. But it is absolutely not normal for it to be constant. The boy isn't bad or evil, he's just not parented adequately.

Stop saying please to him, it’s like you’re asking him not to do it, instead you need to be telling him not to do it!
take your child into another room with his toys, then the other child can’t get them.

Did you not know this child was like this? You must have seen him playing with your DC before! I’d probably not share accommodation with anyone! Never have. Children are not always pleasant but they don’t learn if they are never corrected. I don’t think a 4 year old would not be proud of prizes but doesn’t seem to understand further remarks about another dc not having anything should have been squashed. He’s obviously encouraged to be like this and probably over praised for success. Just distance yourselves and call it a day. Looks like the end of a friendship.

I would remove myself and my kid from this. It's mean and It's bullying.

That sounds hellish. I'd keep them in separate rooms or areas for as much time as humanly possible, even if it means having a family film on a tablet in your room.

Have you mentioned to the parents how his behaviour is constant and upsetting?! Do they just ignore him constantly?

I'd keep pulling him up anytime you are together, and being quite vocal about it to child and their parent so your child knows you are protecting them and advocating for them, and they know it's not accepted by you.

Can you do any days out or meals out or anything like that?

to be fair, at 4 what are they even thinking giving out numerous medals to certain kids and none to others. Yes, kids need to learnt here are winners and losers and not everyone gets a prize, but come on, at most holiday clubs all the kids at least get a sticker for taking part regardless of whether they 'won'. It's hardly the Olympics.

Some kids are naturally quite domineering personalities - and you do need to watch out for it as a parent.

For example, I found my two year old DDs shy friend in our kitchen. When I tried to work out why she had left DD and was hiding in the kitchen, I found my DD bossily shouting at her to "go away and stand in the kitchen" and this poor little girl does everything my bossy 2 year old says.

But, at the end of the day, they're children. They don't have many social filters yet, they're brain just isn't that developed. So you're seeing they're very raw personalities, no filter.

This boy sounds like he's domineering/confident and your DS sounds less so, but that doesn't necessarily mean this boy is "horrible" he's still a tiny child who's learning.

Calling a 4yo 'vile' 'horrible' and 'a bully' is actually quite horrible.No child is automatically those things and there will be reasons behind his behaviours, be it parents not putting in boundaries or being too strict/lenient, SEN or trauma.

That said, your child doesn't deserve to be treated that way.Think it's time you either cut ties with the friend or kept it to adult meet ups only.

No it isn't. It's the truth and the parents' responsibility.

Yes- The parents responsibility not the child's.....(unless he has genuine SEN or trauma from something not their fault) so not fair to lay into the 4yo child for learnt behaviours or a response to bad parenting.

@TizerorFizz the kids have known each other since they were babies and see each other frequently although not always with Mr present. Sometimes they can get along great but I did notice a few months ago I caught the other kid grabbing DS but his jumper and trying to swing him around and throwing air punches at him in what I perceived as aggressive and his parents perceived as messing about. I intervened then. But they have had nice playdates together. I don't know if this kids behaviour is because he started a new preschool last Autumn and he's in a class with mixed ages so maybe it's something the older kids are doing and he's copying. He didn't use to be like this.

He doesn't have SEN. He just seems to have a mean streak and is the product of permissive parenting.

It's still bullying and I won't let it happen to my kid. Simply no way.