Friend has a horrible child or is this normal?

[BackoffSusan]

We've come away on holiday with friends and they have a 4 year old that relentlessly torments and taunts my 4 year old. They seem dismissive of his behaviour and think "the kids are just winding each other up". I think that their kid is just a horrible kid but maybe I'm being precious. Am I? Are kids normally like this at this age? Some examples:
Deliberately destroying my son's den to upset him, whilst saying "im going to break your den", deliberately breaking his toy whilst saying your toy is broken, mine isn't, snatching DS toys out of his hands and refusing to give them back, whilst saying I've got your toy, you can't have it back, chasing after him with some toy scissors saying "im going to cut you and all your toys" and pretending to do so, pushing DS or doing something mean on purpose when he thinks noone is watching & then when DS gets upset he then cries and lies and says DS has hit him, constantly telling DS "im better than you, you're no good at this, you're too small, not strong, not good, I've got this and you haven't". Constantly telling tales. Deliberately doing things he knows DS doesnt like to upset him - DS is quite vocal in saying please dont do that i dont like it, its not nice and this kid just says "im going to do it" It's relentless. Is this normal for a 4 year old? To be deliberately mean and spiteful? Is it a phase? Today both kids attended a class. Friends kid has had more lessons so is at much higher level. He came out waving his medals taunting DS with look what I have, you don't have any, I'm better than you, you're not getting one. DS got upset so I just took him to one side to explain it just takes time to progress and it doesn't matter about the medals. Meanwhile friends kid is following us carrying on with the taunting. He's like it all the time. I snapped at him today and told him his behaviour isn't very kind and he needed to stop. Because his parents just ignore it. Needless to say I won't be holidaying with them again. Any advice on how to manage the last few days. I've tried to keep them apart and just watch them very closely when together but I've had enough.

@BackoffSusan
you mentioned that the son wasn’t like this usually on play dates but that the dad wasn’t there. I do wonder if the dad is that kind of toxic masculinity type who values bigger and better and so the boy is showing off and domineering your son in a way of getting his dads attention or respect?
Instead of demonising a four year old like so many of the grown ass women (mums!) here have done, try to spend time with both children modelling kindness and cooperation. Praise all the positive stuff and redirect the negative. Fighting fire with fire just burns everything down- so “that’s horrible! Don’t speak like that!” teaches nothing… if the boy is comparing in a show off way- say “hey Alex, how about you show Ben how you learnt to do x so well? He’s really good at Y so maybe we could do that too and he can help you learn”? If he does something mean like breaking something call then over and ask him what he did, why he did it, how would he feel if that happened to his thing, again why he did it, what can he do to make things better etc? Work on him learning and changing through understanding why what he’s doing is wrong rather than just saying it’s wrong. Praise all the good playing they do together and don’t leave them alone for long periods. They’re only little.

Reading what the boy is saying .
Sounds like old school parenting possibly ?
Is the father or even mother saying this things to the boy. Telling him he isn’t strong enough or fast enough to make him
push on , win sports , be first .
I just get the feeling what he is saying at 4 has came from somewhere and sounds like possibly copying an adult.

Id keep being firm with the boy and say that’s not nice and stop it .
Tbh you have had more patience than I would have , I’d have said something to the parent by now or left .

Do as pp suggests , take your son on moe 121 or plan something and say at last minute “oh we have such and such to go too” can’t make that club with your son now sorry .

😂 Seriously! @BackoffSusan I’d probably drag back over to his parents by his ear next time he’s being a little shit to your kid. Maybe they’ll be incensed enough to keep the little bullying bastard away from your family.

For the rest of the time there I’d work out a schedule with them as to who is using the house when vs. going out for meals, etc. Are you able to get or afford an airport hotel room for your last night? Then at least you’ll have a relaxing / decompressing time before heading back home. Oh god, I hope they’re not right next to you on the flight?!

I know some lovely parents whose child has some difficult behaviour. No violence or breaking toys but constant verbal battle of wills. From a young age if another child said 'im a fairy princess', this child would have to be the fairy queen so they were more important. Eg age 3. This behaviour is worse and more noticeable when child is tired. It's been happening from such a young age I think there's some sort of innate tendency to it as parents are not like that at all. However I find it quite exhausting to be around...

Sorry that doesn't help your situation and it's unacceptable that the other parents are letting their child break your child's toys. I think the boasting about medals is more within the realms of normal at 4 though.

I would keep at the parents every time he does something wrong. Your holiday is as good as ruined, get them up off their arses to do their job!

I agree with this. You can’t really talk or lecture them into being more proactive parents, but if you involve one or both of them every single time he is mean towards your son, they might get the message that this is their gig and they need to address the problem. But really I would not put my child in this position and would keep him away from the other child as much as possible for the rest of the holiday. This won’t be resolved on holiday anyway.

You really can’t say for certain that the child doesn’t have SEN or other issues at play, but it isn’t even the point. He is making your child miserable and your child deserves to enjoy the rest of his holiday.

My neighbour's DS was like this he would break things, just snap them in two or be very physical. His DM was actually strict and I could tell there wasn't anything she could do it was just his personality.

Four is plenty old enough for deliberately destroying other children’s toys to be completely unacceptable behaviour. Also, the endless bragging and undermining of other children needs dealing with firmly. His parents sound pretty useless, tbh, if they are claiming they think this behaviour is normal and acceptable.

Oh please! It’s op’s HOLIDAY, she’s not a camp councillor or a parental behaviour coach, she wants to have a nice holiday with her son who is also having a nice holiday.

And why shouldn’t she?

Your friends are raising a bully. Kids have to be taught and guided on how to behave. I’m sure if he was doing something dangerous to himself, they’d say something. So they must realise, he can’t just figure stuff out for himself.

I’d do your own thing with your DS for the rest of the holiday and make happy memories, just the two of you. I’d explain to your friends why: your son’s behaviour is unpleasant and draining.

If you do have to spend any time with them, e.g. in the accommodation, every time he’s nasty, rude or taunting, ask him not to. It takes a village to raise a child. I’ve often had to say things to kids if their parents don’t, e.g, throwing sand in kids’ eyes in playgrounds. Just tell him as you would your son. Humour can help to avoid tension but still get the message across, e.g. “Blimey, are you OK? You seem to be trying to win the medal for nastiest behaviour today. It’s not nice to break other people’s things. How would you feel if I broke your toy?”

Let your son know he’s handled it really well and the other boy hasn’t been taught how to be kind.

In those circumstances my 'nice' would be gone I'm afraid. I'd have no compunction at all in raising my voice at the other child. Sometimes the shock value can do the trick. You need to follow it up with the hard stare of death too 'don't even think about pulling that shit face ' 😂

The other tactic is to get down to the little shit's level and talk in a very deep quiet voice straight into his ear 'if you are mean to DS again I'm going to break every toy you ever have' for example (in a calm but menacing tone). If his parents aren't going to give him consequences then you can. I have a friend who's a childminder (an utterly brilliant one with very happy children and a huge waiting list) who uses this tactic at playgroups. Works every time 😬

Your poor boy.

This kid is clearly desperately insecure and crying out for boundaries. Probably made worse by having to share space with another child for a prolonged period when he’s not used to that - presumably he's an only child as you haven’t mentioned siblings being there? Some (not all!) children find that adjustment difficult when they’re little.

I remember going to stay with a friend for a few days when I was at primary school; she was normally a lovely person, but she turned into an absolute mean girl that week, and it was all down to not being able to deal with not having her parents to herself. It was weird and horrible for me at the time.

Also I agree with pps that he’s learnt the need to “be better” from somewhere; either his Dad or his preschool. Maybe he’s getting bullied in this way himself and he’s trying to make himself feel better by doing it to your son, who he perceives as an easy target because he doesn’t fight back.

Anyway, these are possible reasons not solutions. All you can do is watch like a hawk and intervene firmly when necessary, and keep the kids separate as much as possible. No point addressing it with the parents; it won’t go down well.

You can save the friendship between yourselves if you want to. Just stick to adult meet ups for the foreseeable. I’ve had to do that with friends who have kids that don’t get on with mine, or who parent differently. and it’s fine.

I am actually shocked by how many instances you have described. After the first couple I would have stopped hanging out with them and protected my child from this bullying behaviour. I would have no problem at all with telling them that our family would be doing their own thing from now on and the reason why.

Whether you can salvage an adult relationship with the parents is another thing (whether you would even want to...)... but you can't let your child experience this over and over again.

You need to do your job even if they aren't going to do theirs.

OP unless I’ve missed it; how well do you know the parents, you must be close to be on holiday together? Why aren’t you pulling them up on this, and discussing his behaviour towards your son with them? They’re his parents, they should deal with it. Have you sat them down and had a proper conversation with them about it?

I think you should speak very directly to the boy's parents. If you don't, I think your friendship is over anyway.

"Little Jimmy has been absolutely horrible to Tommy since the moment we arrived and frankly it has ruined the holiday for us. I don't understand why you let him get away with such foul behaviour and don't pull him up on it. He's hit and kicked Tommy, deliberately broken his toys, verbally bullied him, it's just been relentless. He wasn't like this before so maybe there's something going on with your family that I'm not aware of. But honestly I'm appalled that you've just let him treat my son this way with zero consequences. I want you to make him apologise to Tommy for his behaviour. If he doesn't, I don't think we'll be seeing each other again."

And for those saying SEN. The lads parents clearly aren’t teaching him how to behave. If any of my DSs had deliberately broken another kid’s toy at any age, I’d have shown how horrified I was. Just like if they’d put their finger in a plug socket.

I’d have told them, in front of the other child and everyone, that was really horrible, asked them to say sorry and go to your room/out of the way until you’ve calmed down. Then, I’d have taken them to buy a replacement toy and get them to give it to the child. If they nagged for an ice cream etc. I’d say, I don’t have the money, I had to spend it to replace the toy you broke. That’s how you model how to behave.

If they don’t teach him how to behave, what the social boundaries are and how to regulate himself, he may well end up not being able to do it. Just like if they don’t teach him how to use the loo, he’ll poo his pants.

Good on him for hitting the little shit.

Agree with others that it’s a parent problem. Alas, if they’re not going to parent their child, you do it for them.

I think you’ll find that when this boy starts school, he’ll get a swift smack in the mouth wake up call from other kids who won’t take kindly to his irritating, nasty behaviour.

Sounds awful. This is why I don’t holiday with friends. Holidaying with extended family is bad enough 😬

Any reason vile child could be envious of your DS family or family’s things?
We had a situation which we thought stemmed from other child feeling an inequality … child started trash talking our family & house constantly. That our nice stuff was bad - look this toy is bad and then break it. Etc

We did need to hide things on visits.

I do agree that there are probably reasons why this DS is behaving like this but it is virtually impossible for the OP to coach him on his behaviour on holiday. Or at all. It won’t be welcomed and it’s not her role.

I fundamentally disagree with grabbing the child by the ear or similar violence. No responsible adult retaliates.

I don’t really believe a 4 year old is a bully either. He’s not old about to be doing repeat behaviour that’s systematically designed to make another child unhappy. He’s behaving badly and saying inappropriate things because he’s over stimulated and probably showing off. He’s not being told how to calm this behaviour down and doesn’t understand the effect he’s having on the Op’s child. Obviously if this is not corrected it has the potential to develop and it’s ruining the holiday. The op is clearly in a difficult position and she has options about what she does. Constantly correcting someone else’s child on holiday does ruin the holiday and she could try being his therapist. Not sure I would do this with his parents there though.

I had a friend who parented this way she seemed oblivious of her child’s behaviour and her husband was so soft and never told their child off. Then they had another child and the eldest picked on the youngest so much. My child was softer and similarly it was laughed off. But my child had a diagnosis and I believe their child needed one but maybe they were in denial. I would keep telling him every time and he will learn that it’s not acceptable. Did you say they were at school together? If so I would be mindful of what happens there.

No he isn’t a horrible child, don’t blame the 4 year old. Your friend is horrible parent and this is the result.

Not normal at all. Let me guess - they practise gentle parenting? Aka - creating a monster.

Your poor son. I would spend the rest of the holiday away from these crap parents and their awful son, and tell them why.

He's not a horrible kid, he is a kid who is not being socialised into how to behave co-operatively. All kids need to be well socialised by adults - that is literally the job of the adults in their life - to teach them the social norms that will enable them to get along with their fellow humans.

He's being horribly let down by his parents.

I would avoid them for the rest of the holiday and do your own thing.

I have a friend and my kids refuse to see hers as they are so unpleasant and violent. Its really awkward and I am sad about it as I rarely get to see her now, but my kids are right. Her kids are just beyond what is acceptable and I can't force my kids to be exposed to it for my sake.

Horrid little toad, don't let him near your child again after such consistently odious behaviour.
The friendship would be over for me, there are plenty of nice, normal families to spend time with where the parents actually parent their children. No need to scrape the barrel with such poor companions again.