Friend has a horrible child or is this normal?

[BackoffSusan]

We've come away on holiday with friends and they have a 4 year old that relentlessly torments and taunts my 4 year old. They seem dismissive of his behaviour and think "the kids are just winding each other up". I think that their kid is just a horrible kid but maybe I'm being precious. Am I? Are kids normally like this at this age? Some examples:
Deliberately destroying my son's den to upset him, whilst saying "im going to break your den", deliberately breaking his toy whilst saying your toy is broken, mine isn't, snatching DS toys out of his hands and refusing to give them back, whilst saying I've got your toy, you can't have it back, chasing after him with some toy scissors saying "im going to cut you and all your toys" and pretending to do so, pushing DS or doing something mean on purpose when he thinks noone is watching & then when DS gets upset he then cries and lies and says DS has hit him, constantly telling DS "im better than you, you're no good at this, you're too small, not strong, not good, I've got this and you haven't". Constantly telling tales. Deliberately doing things he knows DS doesnt like to upset him - DS is quite vocal in saying please dont do that i dont like it, its not nice and this kid just says "im going to do it" It's relentless. Is this normal for a 4 year old? To be deliberately mean and spiteful? Is it a phase? Today both kids attended a class. Friends kid has had more lessons so is at much higher level. He came out waving his medals taunting DS with look what I have, you don't have any, I'm better than you, you're not getting one. DS got upset so I just took him to one side to explain it just takes time to progress and it doesn't matter about the medals. Meanwhile friends kid is following us carrying on with the taunting. He's like it all the time. I snapped at him today and told him his behaviour isn't very kind and he needed to stop. Because his parents just ignore it. Needless to say I won't be holidaying with them again. Any advice on how to manage the last few days. I've tried to keep them apart and just watch them very closely when together but I've had enough.

True, even if it was, its bad parenting still.

Sorry you are having such a time of it on holiday OP 😕

It's not normal, no.

Even my two year old knows better than that. Not saying he's perfect, but no way he'd behave like that relentlessly, rather than an isolated loss of temper. Same for my 4yo, and all the children at his nursery. Apart from anything else, the teachers would immediately pull any child doing that sort of thing up. Because they're responsible care givers.

I actually think the bully-boy's parents are being cruel, as they're essentially condemning their child to be "that boy", doesn't get invited places, and who no-one wants to be around 😕 Not your responsibility though. You have to protect your own son, awkward though it is. You could be forceful in telling the boy and his parents, that it stops now. The other parents might be happy for you to be the strict one, and the child would probably appreciate the boundaries. But if the other parents are likely to be offended, or you just don't fancy parenting someone else's child (!), all you can really do is avoid them, as others have suggested. Such a shame all round though!

Not sure i could remain friends with people who can stand back and tolerate their DS being openly mean to your DS. If they aren't disciplining now they won't be in 4 years time when the bullying may become worse. If you value your friendship then I would have a word with them about how you feel if nothing changes then I would distance myself from them all for the sake of my DS

Really? A combination of that with crap parenting is a possibility ( but op said he isn't now so that's that) my own autistic toddler is a bit mean at times, but we parent her and teach her it's not acceptable.

Jesus, what is it with some parents completely ignoring their child's horrible behaviour??

I have 2 autistic kids of my own. 1 is hard work doesn't understand yet unfortunately at age 3 not to be mean. Of course we parent her though. 🙄

I'd stop with namby pamby language too all this "Toby hasn't used kind words today " or such like. I've actually said to my two "because he's horrible!" Or such like. I care more about validating my children than tip toeing around some feral unboundaried child. No good teaching your kids to be victims and door mats whilst the horrible one's get more emboldened. I do then explain reasons to my kids why ''toby" might be horrible.

I really hope you can salvage what’s left of your holiday and have a lovely time with your son.
Id keep clear of them completely
It’s not healthy to be around nasty kids like that or parents that do nothing.

I would look at it a bit differently. He's only 4. I don't consider him horrible, I consider him having a very difficult time.

Clearly for whatever reason this boy is really struggling, feeling insecure or with poor self esteem, feeling jealous of your son perhaps? Perhaps he's overwhelmed by being away. Or wanted time with just his parents. Or is trying to get attention. Maybe his dad ignores him which is why he's doing it now.

But that doesn't mean you have to like or put up with his poor behaviour. It sounds like 1-1 time would be best all round.

How horrible for your little boy to be subjected to all this relentless nastiness and spite. You are doing the right thing by telling the other boy that his behaviour is unkind and by keeping them separate. A small part of me feels sorry for him because his parents are not intervening and talking to him about acceptable behaviour and being kind to others.Taking the line of least resistance will be shoring up problems for the future

Then that is the difference. This kids parents, ND or not, are not parenting at all.

And that takes me back to what I said about who the hell cares if he is or not? Not the kid he is bullying.

Why are you allowing your kid to be bullied on holiday.... tell the parents and stand up to the bully! You're teaching your son that is ok...

It sounds like you're handling it well. Soon you'll be done with this and back home. I've lost friends because their kids were undisciplined brats before. It's a shame. Maybe you can reconnect with this friend later on, when and if the situation changes. Sorry it turned out so lousy for you and your son. :(

Agree with this .

It seems people didn't like me wondering if he had ASN. My own 3 year old is a lovely girl, but gets so overstimulated by being around other kids. Can be mean and we intervene and teach her. She doesn't like sharing toys and we work on it. Doesn't mean she's horrible. So little.

But this boy may just be mean, but there will be a reason.

@BackoffSusan

Wondering......is his dad one of "those" men/dads who takes great pride in his son being the best? Or is he that man himself?

He has learned this "I am better than you because.....and if I am not, I will kick you down until I am the best" from somewhere and usually in sons it is toxic fathers doing it. And if it isnt, then it is almost certainly school and if I was his mother I would be very worried about that school.....

I agree that there will be a reason but there is a difference between "doesnt like sharing" and deliberately breaking a toy another child has that is the same as their's so they are ahead. Or crowing that they are better at something to the point of another child being in tears. Or lying when the other kid is upset and saying that the other kid hit them. He is being manipulative and sly.

That isnt ND in the way you mean, that is calculated nastiness and it has been taught. And if it IS ND, then it is the scary one.

Ok, I agree with this. Sad situation for this family.

They're 4! 4 year olds are assholes because they haven't yet learned how not to be. You've admitted that your own son hit the other kid and is very vocal about what the other child should or shouldn't be doing. That's probably winding the other kid up just as much as their behavior is bothering your son (no judgment here by the way. My kids would have done the same thing at 4). Just talk to your friends. It doesn't have to be confrontational, just say that the children aren't really gelling so for the rest of the holiday, you'll do your own thing and then get together as adults once the kids have all gone to bed. Or you can go all in and tell them their son is a monster and throw a hand grenade into your own friendship. Up to you!

Wow

I can't comment cos it's all one long text. I need paragraphs, sorry OP.

And it's late.

Speaking from experience- only it was 3 against my 1 I ended up telling one of her children off about how horrible they were being and from then on I did my own thing with my child. If I could have got home I would have done but had no choice but to see the week out. Please just avoid this child as much as you can and just lose the friendship when you get home.

This boy sounds like he's domineering/confident and your DS sounds less so, but that doesn't necessarily mean this boy is "horrible" he's still a tiny child who's learning

^

Hence the need for parents

You need to ask parents to intervene as their son is being mean to yours.

Stick your leg out next time he runs past.

People take shyness and quietness for weakness. When in fact those people are maybe more quietly confident and don't feel the need to constantly grab attention. Loud and domineering types always strike me as being a bit insecure deep down.