Friend has a horrible child or is this normal?

[BackoffSusan]

We've come away on holiday with friends and they have a 4 year old that relentlessly torments and taunts my 4 year old. They seem dismissive of his behaviour and think "the kids are just winding each other up". I think that their kid is just a horrible kid but maybe I'm being precious. Am I? Are kids normally like this at this age? Some examples:
Deliberately destroying my son's den to upset him, whilst saying "im going to break your den", deliberately breaking his toy whilst saying your toy is broken, mine isn't, snatching DS toys out of his hands and refusing to give them back, whilst saying I've got your toy, you can't have it back, chasing after him with some toy scissors saying "im going to cut you and all your toys" and pretending to do so, pushing DS or doing something mean on purpose when he thinks noone is watching & then when DS gets upset he then cries and lies and says DS has hit him, constantly telling DS "im better than you, you're no good at this, you're too small, not strong, not good, I've got this and you haven't". Constantly telling tales. Deliberately doing things he knows DS doesnt like to upset him - DS is quite vocal in saying please dont do that i dont like it, its not nice and this kid just says "im going to do it" It's relentless. Is this normal for a 4 year old? To be deliberately mean and spiteful? Is it a phase? Today both kids attended a class. Friends kid has had more lessons so is at much higher level. He came out waving his medals taunting DS with look what I have, you don't have any, I'm better than you, you're not getting one. DS got upset so I just took him to one side to explain it just takes time to progress and it doesn't matter about the medals. Meanwhile friends kid is following us carrying on with the taunting. He's like it all the time. I snapped at him today and told him his behaviour isn't very kind and he needed to stop. Because his parents just ignore it. Needless to say I won't be holidaying with them again. Any advice on how to manage the last few days. I've tried to keep them apart and just watch them very closely when together but I've had enough.

I'd definitely stop the meet ups with the children. Sed her separate if she asks I'd tell her why. They need to parent him or you will just be the first of many who distance themselves.

I think you’re right to separate the children as much as possible. It must be so disappointing that your holiday has been negatively affected.

Having said that, I don’t think it’s right to demonise a 4-year-old whose parents don’t seem to intervene to stop his behaviour. Some of the language used to describe him is really OTT. The parents are the ones to blame. The child is receiving the message that it’s acceptable for him to act this way. And he’s likely too immature to fully realise the effect of his actions on other children.

Since you’ve known this family for a long time and your children have got along well before, I would expect he’s not irredeemable. His parents’ laissez faire approach isn’t helping matters, but you may find that the boys play well together in other circumstances. I know that doesn’t help salvage the current situation, alas.

Can I guess? Your dc is an 'only', other child has siblings or spends long hours in a nursery?

Their kid is a bully. No question. Have you asked your son if he even likes this little twerp? I wouldn’t inflict that child on mine at all. I had cause to speak to a friend of mine about her kid’s behaviour when mine were little and she said “Oh, he’s not a bully, he’s assertive.” She then went on to justify this by explaining that assertive people get further in life, etc. I just avoided them after that. He ended up biting a kid a few days after starting school and of course the kid needed a tetanus shot and stitches. Was quite traumatised. She tried to explain this away, but the teacher wasn’t having a bar of it. The teacher told her that her child was unable to cope with boundaries because she had never set them, and if she didn’t start immediately, he would be excluded from that school permanently. He recommended family counseling also. (Her DH was a bully too, and in hindsight, she had become a soggy twit to accommodate his behaviour too.)

I agree with this. OP some of your language about a 4 year old is a bit harsh, when you aren't really mentioning his parents. His parents are on this holiday with you, get them to intervene, make them parent their child. The 4 year old isn't going to magically have a realisation himself that he needs to stop, they need to work with him. I would keep at the parents every time he does something wrong. Your holiday is as good as ruined, get them up off their arses to do their job!

We had a similar situation with family members, both kids are 3. We just kept going back to the parents until they intervened their own child properly and it stopped.

It's normal for children (some more than others) to naturally incline toward bratty or otherwise negative behaviour, but it's not normal for parents to just allow it to happen and minimise it. They should be embarrassed that he's so antagonistic and taking steps to teach him better.

That is not normal. This is a troubled child you are dealing with. He is behaving like a child who is copying abusive, bullying behaviour he has either witnessed or experienced.

Do you step in and try to discipline him when he bullies your son?
If not, you need to do that. Don't worry about upsetting the parents. The friendship needs to end. You have nothing to lose here - except the confidence your child has in you to protect him.

Since you only have a few days left, could you just pack your son into your car and do day trips? If you have to stick it out, you need to commit to doing whatever it takes to protect your son.

Why? Children need to learn that actions have consequences. If the parents are not going to do anything and reprimands don't work because the child has learned to ignore them, then I don't see the problem in talking to them in a language they do understand.

Your two year old sounds normal, and so does her friend.

At four, though, this child should have more of a filter. He should have developed the ability to play and cooperate with another child. He should be able to work toward a goal or play games with another child and derive happiness from that. He should have an interest in establishing a connection with another child, not engaging in power plays. And there is the mean streak.

He sounds the opposite of confident - his social-emotional development is significantly delayed, and he seems to derive no joy from the accolades he received for the activity he's good at - he needed to put the OP's child down as well as getting his medals.

I agree he's not simply "horrible". This is a very unhappy child whose parents should be extremely concerned about his development. It seems they have instead concentrated on developing his skill in the activity of the class he went to. He is a victim of neglect in many respects.

You're doing the right things to protect your son OP. Is this perhaps a case of they're on holiday so they are not parenting properly because of that? It's hard work and they're having a break, i.e. neglecting their responsibilities. Easier when other parents are around to parent their child for them.

You've got to wonder if they suggested/agreed to a holiday together because they were finding their own child challenging and thought being with another family might make things easier or change the dynamic as he's a nightmare for them to discipline.

The parents are to blame. Make sure you take your son away from him for the day and tell them why, as he sounds relentless.

We once went to visit my friend in Italy and her son started doing this to our daughter. Throwing her toys off the balcony. Calling her names. It was a nightmare. He received a very half hearted reprimand sometimes but not consistently. My daughter is 25 now and still reminds me. Unfortunately he grew up to be a nightmare and bullied his mother relentlessly.

Hopefully, you can just do things with your son for the next few days and ignore the other boy completely. The other child loves the attention, even negative, so stop giving it to him. Do things with just the two of you, including meals. When at the vacation house, ignore the boy and do your own thing, whether a movie, book, game, etc.

This kid can only terrorize your son if you let him near him. Don't let it happen.

Kid clearly isn’t being parented well. Someone needs to tell him, “nobody is going to like you if you keep being unkind.” “Nobody likes a boaster.” “You’re not going to be allowed to play with Sam anymore if you keep treating him like this.”

Respect to the teacher in that situation.

Being 4 (or any age) may explain the behaviour does explain the parents doing nothing

Sounds like a spoilt child with no boundaries.

You're allowed to protect your son! If you're on holiday together, so there's no escape, and the parents are turning a blind eye, then absolutely I would say (loudly) every time "no, we don't do that" and take the scissors off him, or take the toy back etc.

He sounds awful. I would start making the parents feel very embarrassed about their son’s behaviour. So next time he says or does something nasty be like “Gemma/Mike, sorry, are you not going to say anything? I don’t normally like telling other people’s kids off but I presume you didn’t hear him?”. If they say it’s just playing be really shocked and be like “hang on, you guys think this is normal? Surely he doesn’t do things like this at school/nursery?”. Then if it doesn’t improve be like “we used to like going away with you guys but obviously given little Tarquin’s behaviour, that’s not going to be an option going forward but no hard feelings”. Basically make them feel as embarrassed as possible. Some kids are utter shits but I really cannot stand parents who don’t even try to tell them off.

If this was a cousin or family member it would be worth wondering why etc and finding a strategy to deal with.
But since it's a friendship, I would keep my distance and avoid for the rest of the holiday and onward. If they comment or ask why keep it short: I can't tolerate the aggression and meanness. It's just doesn't work for us.
And as you say, lesson learnt

Great suggestions! Especially telling your own kid that this is not the way. It needs to know the other kid is at fault and that that’s unacceptable.

Stop saying 'please' and 'that's unkind' tell him is a brat to his face.

I once had the misfortune of my boss bringing his brat in to work, he was being foul, wrecking the place and trying to lift up the skirt of another person. His dad thought it was funny.

Now this is 30 years ago so I wouldn't bet away with it now but I looked the kid in the eye and said, "If you try to do anything to me I will hit you, and I don't care that your dad will hot me back twice as hard, it will be worth it.

I got left alone.

It doesn't sound normal to me. Agree with you it sounds horrible behaviour. And the parents are storing up trouble if they don't realise it and call him out on it and deal with it.

I'd agree with PP of trying to do as much apart as possible and protect your child. And if you can get him a medal from the place he did the class, I'd get one (explain the issue to the staff and they might give you one) and then when you get home - not anywhere near the other child - give it to him and say he is the one who really deserves a medal for being such a lovely kind boy and trying so hard. You need to boost his self esteem.

YANBU

I’m not a helicopter parent but there should be consequences for deliberately bad behaviour. Your friends are at fault here.

I’d have no time for this. My weekends and holidays are precious.

I’d be taking day trips / doing your own thing as much as possible and if asked I’d explain why “jimmy isnt able to play nicely and you aren’t willing to address it”

if it happens on your presence I’d be physically intervening and telling the little shit to stop being unpleasant and to leave your child alone if he can’t play nicely.

It's a great idea. The little wally needs a taste of his own medicine!