Friend has a horrible child or is this normal?

[BackoffSusan]

We've come away on holiday with friends and they have a 4 year old that relentlessly torments and taunts my 4 year old. They seem dismissive of his behaviour and think "the kids are just winding each other up". I think that their kid is just a horrible kid but maybe I'm being precious. Am I? Are kids normally like this at this age? Some examples:
Deliberately destroying my son's den to upset him, whilst saying "im going to break your den", deliberately breaking his toy whilst saying your toy is broken, mine isn't, snatching DS toys out of his hands and refusing to give them back, whilst saying I've got your toy, you can't have it back, chasing after him with some toy scissors saying "im going to cut you and all your toys" and pretending to do so, pushing DS or doing something mean on purpose when he thinks noone is watching & then when DS gets upset he then cries and lies and says DS has hit him, constantly telling DS "im better than you, you're no good at this, you're too small, not strong, not good, I've got this and you haven't". Constantly telling tales. Deliberately doing things he knows DS doesnt like to upset him - DS is quite vocal in saying please dont do that i dont like it, its not nice and this kid just says "im going to do it" It's relentless. Is this normal for a 4 year old? To be deliberately mean and spiteful? Is it a phase? Today both kids attended a class. Friends kid has had more lessons so is at much higher level. He came out waving his medals taunting DS with look what I have, you don't have any, I'm better than you, you're not getting one. DS got upset so I just took him to one side to explain it just takes time to progress and it doesn't matter about the medals. Meanwhile friends kid is following us carrying on with the taunting. He's like it all the time. I snapped at him today and told him his behaviour isn't very kind and he needed to stop. Because his parents just ignore it. Needless to say I won't be holidaying with them again. Any advice on how to manage the last few days. I've tried to keep them apart and just watch them very closely when together but I've had enough.

Oh ffs...of course he's horrible!

Pointless question.

Some kids really struggle on holidays and they behaviour goes awful (not justifying it just thinking about why it's different) parents need to handle it. I would just try to keep your kid away and be on it and maybe have a break from them when you get home

I think it’s a parent problem. You’ve done the right thing getting some space.

could you try and get the mum alone and explain how it’s been making you feel?

I can honestly say if my kids pulled any of that shit we would have read the the riot act. If they kept doing it, we would have gone back to the hotel room.

Also, do you usually spend more time with the mum and son, without dad present? Does the boy’s dad encourage roughness/laddish behaviour? Just thinking is the boy showing off for his dad.

Some only children are missing the one-up-man-ship you automatically get with siblings so act out with children they feel safe with. It’s not an excuse and your child still needs protecting from it, but it may help to understand.

We have two kids who do this with my son, a calm, ‘naive’ kid with a strong sense of justice who can’t find it in him to be mean. They’re 7-8, so it takes a different form to the 4-year-olds here. We’ve reduced contact with the boy (they still see each other at school), and keep an open dialogue with DS including telling him that F. doesn’t always tell the truth, so if he is told something that bothers him, talk to us about it. DS understands the kid is very insecure (‘not confident inside, so he tries to take some of your confidence to make him feel better’ DS: ‘it’s not working, is it?’ Me: ‘no, but he hasn’t realised that yet’). I’ve picked the boy up on lies when he’s done it in front of me to show him I see through him, but with a calm statement not to rile the situation further. His mum doesn’t realise what’s going on or indeed what the kid is doing most of the day, it’s not a close relationship or one where she’d know how to stop the behaviour.

We only see the girl a couple of times a year and it’s isolated incidents I pick her up on. Then they make friends again. It’s jealousy at root again. We’ve spoken to DS about it.

If it was the level your DS is being subject to, I’d remove my child as much as possible, tell the parents why and tell my child I’ve seen what’s going on and we’ll stay away from brat until he grows out of the bad behaviour (kids can and do change, but at the moment he’s an unchecked bully).

This is why I wouldn't ever holiday with other families- my own is stressful enough!

It's both a parent problem and a kid problem because some people just are mean and if not properly parented can stay mean (sometimes stay mean even when parents are doing a grand job). Parents need to recognise it and parent the child they've been given specifically. He may grow out of it. In the meantime, protect your child by making it clear to him that other child's behaviour is not normal and not to be tolerated so keep access very limited and supervised. Your child doesn't need that to thrive, so focus on him alone. Your friendship will likely suffer but less if you keep it all factual - the line to take is that your kids don't get on unfortunately and you're not prepared to leave your DS vulnerable to this kid. They'll be hearing more of it from other parents in the course of time so may as well be the first and be cheerful about it.

Did your partner notice? What did they do about it?

You need to tell the child yourself, every time you witness it, and tell him very firmly that his behaviour is unacceptable and that you don’t like it and that he will stay away from your DS if he can’t be kind. Don’t sugarcoat it in the slightest, get right down the the kids level and give him some firm eye contact.

What are the parents going to do it they witness this, tell you to stop?!

The whole family sound awful but you are there now. Stick up for your DS though and absolutely prioritise his feelings and let that me one of his memories from the holiday, although you should have nipped this in the bud on day one.

I’d take his version of the toy he broke and give it to ds. He gets the broken one as he broke it.

Sounds horrendous. Keep well away!

This stood out to me too. Who is speaking to the DS like that ? He does sound troubled. I also think that children can be horrible people at times! I have four DC so have met a fair few DC and watched them grow up, and there are a few who are just unpleasant from an early age and never do grow out of the that.

My child has adhd so prone to challenging behaviour like this.
I have to be on top of him all the time putting him in line. People think im a hellicopter parent but i dont care. It's exhausting but finally paying off now that he's 5.

It sounds like the parents don't really know what to do and are a bit 'rabbit in the headlights " with it all. They really should be pulling him up with behaviour this intense

Some young children can be like this but you'd expect a parent to step in and tell the child off. I'd probably say that your friends can't be bothered to parent their child, and it's easier to say it's 'children being children'. Unfortunately, without parental intervention, this child will continue to behave in this way, and then struggle to form friendships at school. No child is going to want to play with a child behaving in a nasty way. It sounds like this other child is possibly jealous of your son? Perhaps has been used to playdates but never had to share space for a long period of time, with another child? You need to intervene, for your son's sake. If this means removing your own child from the situation and telling the other child his behaviour is nasty, then do it. I would go out for the day, without this family, try to avoid spending time with them for the last few days. Keep the children apart during the time you are at the accommodation (assuming you are sharing). Don't go away with them again, politely decline invitations.

I had a close friend who's child was like this to.mine and everyone else's. I watched waiting for her to intervene, she never did acknowledge it. Then I intervened with, that's not nice, why don't you play nicely together on x? But then his mum became frosty with me for speaking to his child. Then one day my child told his to go away because he's being mean, then his mum told mine that she's being horrible and bullying her son?! I explained what happened and she kept shouting at us both. It was a but werid to be honest. She didn't mind her child being horrible, but didn't like another child telling him to go away?! Our friendship was over that day. Moral of the story is, mean children are made that way by parents without correcting their behaviour. Which means the parents want them to behave that way. I kept away from all mean kids, even if it meant I'd love a coffee with their mum. Because my kids come first and aren't here to be bullied.

How awful op you’re poor ds. You are doing all the right things as tempting as it is to let him retaliate and teach him a lesson. And yes no more holidays! Last group holiday we went on kids were all angels but the adults…. Expected us to wait on them hand and foot - nope never again

I disagree. I think it’s really worth some internal reflection on the OP’s part. We don’t stop making poor decisions if we don’t reflect on why we made them previously.

He sounds spoilt with no boundaries. His parents need to actually parent him .
He will only get worse if they don't.
I would definitely avoid as much as possible.

Ha! I was waiting for someone to say this. Totally agree. I have sen children and while their behaviour has been challenging, i would never have allowed this type of bullying.

So this is a sudden, extreme change in behaviour? If so, it’s concerning and worth raising with your friend. Aside from that, your decision not to do this again is definitely for the best.

Really?! While a given the behaviour is clearly not nice, the child is 4 and at this point it is for the parents to manage. Fairly strong to call a 4 year old a bully, then following up with a “FFS” as though the parent is putting their child in danger and failing to fulfil their own parenting responsibilities.

i had a friend who’s dd was like this at this age. She was the nastiest small child I’ve ever known and her mum just let her get away with it. I called time on the friendship after her dd genuinely tried with all her might to push my dd down the stairs (steep Victorian stairs with a tiled floor at the bottom). I decided dds safety was far more important.

I often wonder what that kid grew up to be like.

if I were you I’d try and do separate activities for the last couple of days.

Wow, I'm sorry but what kind of parent ignores that behaviour? I'd be very upset if a child of mine acted that way. Don't get me wrong children can have the odd moment but that child does sound as though he is very unpleasant. Good job you've been able to reassure your young son and hopefully when you return from your hols your son will not have to see him.

He sounds horrible. I grew abroad and one kid on the estate around 6 tried to strangle a neighbours dog by putting a log of wood into his collar. He kicked down a wooden den some kids had made and went onto try and poison a neighbour years later! Strangely enough the other sibling was very pleasant aswell as the parents.

A family friend used to be a primary school teacher for many years and remember her saying, from an early age you can tell if a child will grow up nasty.

It sounds like his parents are being very dismissive. My ds1 (3) can be lively but he knows fine well not to hurt or upset another child!

Poor DS and poor you. This sounds horrible.

I agree with the PPs that this is a parenting problem. However, it does not really matter why he’s doing it but how you react.

I wouldn’t bother with any explanations or get into any discussions but I found a stern “No! Do not do that!” works well. Definitely no shouting, and actually quite quiet but very firm with a very serious face.

Kids that age who feel comfortable being so unkind have probably had all the “kind hands, darling” reaction so an adult setting a boundary in an unemotional way can be very effective.

My DCs are quite passive and quiet and I can remember very clearly giving a little boy a lift. It was part of an ongoing lift share.
He was doing the whole boasting against thing with my eldest who was doing his best to ignore it. I reckon they must have been about 8 at the time. I said jokily (I am quite a smiley Mum. Honest!) “That’s brilliant! Well done you”. He continued, so more breezy chat from me “we don’t really like boasting in the car”.

The boy then decided to try it with my 5 year old. Telling him how rubbish he was because he could not read or do whatever as well as this himself.
I pulled the car over told him. “We don’t do that. if you don’t stop I’m taking you straight home and you’ll miss your club.”

The mum and I had a chat about it. The boy stopped. He’s a lovely young man now and was just going through a bit of a twattish phase because he was so little.
I believe he really didn’t realise that it is not acceptable to be a dick to other kids in that way because he had seen other boys at school doing it.

All I knew in that moment was a kid was being horrible to my children to make themselves feel better and my children feel worse. It’s my job to stop that.

And if the kid learns not to be a twat, then that’s an added bonus. Maybe this is what we really mean when we say, “It takes a village to raise a child”?