I am a narcissist

[ohyesido]

I am. But I'm not a horrible person.

I lack empathy but I've learned that it isn't nice to manipulate people.

Yet I still do, only in such a way that no one can ever really accuse me of it. Because I twist my words to indicate that I have everyone's best interests at heart.

Everything I do is calculated to ensure I get my own way while maintaining a facade of good intentions

Can anyone relate?

You might buy it for a bit but probably not long term to be fair.
I wouldn't do you any harm (unless you crossed me or my DC) but from what I understand you would probably think something wasn't quite right.
Not much I can do about it though and I have just had to accept who I am and work on my behaviour if not my thoughts.

I would worry such a place could easily radicalise and intensify people’s worst behaviour. It would be a playground for the malevolent, I suspect. Why wouldn’t it?

I imagine they would be too terrifying even for me

Exactly. And this particular thread was set up from the very first as a goading and baiting exercise. Hardly a cry for help and support.

I have no need at all for you to take me seriously (whatever that means)
It would be nice to believe its all lies wouldn't it and anyone like me is a criminal or in jail or very easily spotted?
As I keep saying its a spectrum and (thankfully) I seem to be at the opposite end to the stereotype most people can't see past. I am a generally pleasant, functioning member of society with a good job and a family who loves me, its just all a bit different in my head.

Not really. The errors in thinking and chaotic lives only garner a mild shaking of the head, rather than fear. Not everyone with a cluster b personality disorder is actually dangerous. Just high theatrics and performances that wouldn’t be out of place at a primary school Shakespeare rehearsal.

Seems like you spend a lot of time on such forums
Is it to try and prove superiority in some way and drop constant digs and insults or are you actually interested in how different peoples brains work?

Why are you being so unpleasant? The people saying that they have a personality disorder, are largely being polite and respectful. Why can’t you challenge their comments without being snide and rude?

PDs are complex and there is a spectrum of severity. It sounds like most of the people here have got some insight to a degree and are able to reflect and manage their behaviour to the extent that it becomes socially acceptable. It doesn’t mean that what is going on in their minds and their feelings or what you I might consider ‘normal’. I imagine most of us however have thoughts and possibly behaviours that are not perfect either, even though we don’t have diagnoses.

They aren’t “errors” in thinking. They are differences in thinking.

Delusions and distortions are errors in thinking.

@joliefolle I’d agree that a delusion is an error in thinking, but a distortion is just a difference (just my opinion and open to being wrong). I’m not educated enough in PD to know if delusions are a part of the diagnostic criteria though. I thought that was just for mental illness such as psychosis/schizophrenia?

It would be necessary to create a firm basis of "normal" in order to say something was a delusion or distortion I imagine, of course if it was extreme it would be obvious but these things rarely are.
But I am not an expert

Distorted thinking is a key feature of personality disorders, shaping how individuals view themselves, others, and the world around them. While everyone experiences irrational thoughts from time to time, those with personality disorders struggle with extreme and persistent cognitive distortions. These patterns can lead to misinterpreting others’ intentions, unrealistic fears, or rigid beliefs, making emotional regulation and healthy relationships difficult.
Distorted thinking patterns affect emotions, behaviours and social interactions A person may see situations in black and white, feel constant suspicion, or experience extreme self-doubt. Because these thoughts feel real to them, changing them can be challenging without professional guidance.

Agree with @joliefolle. Anyone can take a "Who decides what's normal?" position but, when talking about basic human functionality, 'normal' has its usual statistical meaning based on a sample of the world's population.

Rigid thought patterns are a defining feature of personality disorders - that's what makes them disorders. Ordinary people can be inflexible, get stuck in repeating patterns and adopt polarised attitudes. With further reflection, we can normally overcome these dysfunctional habits. People with personality disorders can't. Neither can people with some other neuro-divergent conditions, some types of brain injury and some learning disorders, which is why those are considered during differential diagnosis.

Many personality disorders are heavy with delusions (unusual or eccentric beliefs) - in old money these would've been Cluster A, with frequent appearances by Cluster B and guerrilla attacks on Cluster C. Almost everybody gets delusions at times. Persistent ones can be modified with therapy and/or medication but few people with PDs will ever be free of them.

As I understand it, psychopaths are the least likely to suffer delusions although most have a tendency to excessive narcissism (delusions of grandeur). Without that, limited emotionality plus rational detachment could in some ways be a superpower - not at all normal, though!

I find this super interesting. Thank you.

What are your thoughts on @ohyesido(say hi to your parrot for me) and @Hoppinggreen being so self-aware and able to adapt their dysfunctional habits? That doesn’t seem to me to fit the picture of rigid thinking that comes with a PD? Or is it just an adaptation of behaviour to be able to fit in? Or self-serve? Or all a part of a spectrum?

Thank you, @FlyingUnicornWings! I'm gonna swerve your questions by pointing out that forum posts give fractional insight at best ... maybe they'd like to answer for themselves?

Delusions as we talk about them in mental health are relatively unusual symptoms. I am not sure that most people have delusions. They are where a person has an unshakeable belief in something untrue, and out of keeping with someone’s sociocultural background. We see them mostly in psychotic illnesses like schizophrenia and delusional disorder.

There can be some delusional thinking in a PD eg in EUPD the paranoid thinking can be borderline delusional (hence the old name of borderline personality disorder).

But generally in psychiatry, delusions are not usually a characteristic of a PD.

Re: delusions, for the purposes of this thread, perhaps better to have said “fixed ideas” that are so absolute as to approach delusional proportions. Attempts to question the fixed beliefs often lead patients to react with anxiety and hostility" (which is from the PDM).

Again, this is only me but I don't have delusions in the sense that I believe things that aren't true really are or that I have beliefs that I think most people would call excessive. I did used to think I was very special and unique when I was younger but I realised that wasn't the case around 18/19 I think. I am prone to it still now but again learned behaviour has mitigated it. It's not so much that I don't think I am special but I now realise that some other people are too if that makes sense?
I can be very inflexible in my thoughts and do repeat behaviours that lead to a negative outcome. Often I do have a "what was I thinking?????!!!" type insight but it doesn't mean I won't do it again.
Luckily nothing really criminal or dangerous.
I did steal money once when I was about 21, I wanted it and was not going to get caught so I could see no good reason not to. I haven't done anything like that since though and am pretty sure I wouldn't now BUT mostly from fear of being caught.
If there was absolutely zero chance of any repercussions and I am being completely honest I have no idea what I might do. I HAVE created for both myself and people who know me a persona where I am very moral so I probably wouldn't want to risk destroying that but with a 100% chance of not getting caught who knows? I wouldn't physically harm anyone else though, although if they had hurt one of The DC I can't guarantee it.
Having said that I think most people are the same on that.

You seem to be writing as a psych professional, @LHRorLGW, so I'm not going to argue with you.

Instead, I'll clarify that I'm using delusion to mean fixed beliefs about reality that other experiences show cannot be true, which I've lifted from the Mind website. You've focused on paranoid/persecution delusions, yet other more cheerful beliefs such as grandiosity, erotomania and 'broadcasting' are available, alongside specifically terrifying ones like somatic and 'thought insertion'.

And, yes, most people do experience at least one delusional episode. They usually pass, but I'd say a sizeable proportion of people live functional lives with persistent beliefs in their otherworldly powers, as a common example.

Hopping - other than the counsellor you mentioned before (who I think you said was a friend too) and the one-off private psych consult you had, have you ever actually had therapy? This is a long thread that's been going on for days, so I can't remember what you've said other than the fact you generally don't care about people outside of your nuclear family and that you had PND so it took a while to attach to your kids. You were raised by at least one parent who had a diganosed PD, very academic and grew up thinking you were uniquely special until reality gave you a prod (in your first year of uni?), you have a strong need for admiration, so work very hard to have an angelic super moral and caring persona outside of the privacy of your relationship with your husband (who knows what you're really like)... This is a genuine question, have I missed something? Having aggressive feelings towards others that you would not act on (unless they hurt/threatened your kids), not knowing whether you'd steal if there was 100% chance of not getting caught etc. are not, as you say, unusual.

Yes, there are different kinds of delusions. Experiences like thought insertion are more characteristic of schizophrenia rather than personality disorder though.

I’m definitely not delusional. Nor do I have delusions of grandeur, I just objectively know I’m better at a lot of things than a lot of people. Objectively I know I’m cleverer and in work, I know I’m better at my job than most of my colleagues. That’s not to say I think I’m more important though. I do have a strong desire to be admired and put a lot of effort into my appearance, professionalism and home.

If you were to talk to my very close friends, they’d say I can be hard faced and that they wouldn’t cross me; if you were to talk to acquaintances they’d probably describe me as polite and upbeat; colleagues would say I’m professional but quiet. My husband would say I am cutthroat. I don’t really have any scruples internally, so all my behaviours are governed by ‘rules’ - either societal ones or my own (ie it isn’t okay to ruin someone’s life because you don’t like them; wishing someone is dead because it would make your life easier = bad thoughts). I tend to use my husband as a sounding board a lot - particularly with my tone in conversations or emails.

In my head, it is pretty wonderful. I don’t really feel anxious or nervous (unless it is something that means a lot; I took an exam for work this week and waiting for the results was painful), and pretty much never feel down or sad. I mostly feel pretty upbeat & energetic, and struggle to understand how others might not

I thought this… if someone admitted to being one, they couldn’t be one as a narcissist they wouldn’t recognise it?

@Straightjacketsandroses there's nothing particularly wrong with any of that is there though? Your need to burn bridges for fun and to abruptly end relationships to see how others react doesn't seem to have any impact on your ability to enjoy family life, work or close friendships so it can't be that bad. My thought for Hoppinggreen was that she said she her way of being in the world is exhausting, and it does sound it, and actually is not now at this stage of life when an ASPD diagnosis would be repeated but that therapy would help with mentalization and reframing. You, on the other hand, don't have any complaints. I think a parent who presents as "overly emotional" can be very hard for kids, but you've said you strive to be a perfect parent so I imagine you don't do that act with them.