People who drop out of life

[Dappy777]

Over the last week or so I've had two separate conversations about people who've 'dropped out' of life – no job, no friends, no interest in anything.

Last night, for example, I went for a meal with a family friend who was telling us about his youngest brother. He is 30, lives with their mum, and has no life at all. He has no job, no relationship, no hobbies and very few friends. He spends all day in the flat eating takeaways and drinking, then sleeps most of the afternoon, wakes up around 8pm and sits up all night playing video games. He's never been abroad, and never even been to London (he lives in north Essex).

I had a similar chat on Christmas Day. A neighbour told me about his brother and how he's "given up on life" (as my neighbour put it). Doesn't work, date, socialize, pursue hobbies, nothing.

It isn't so much the not dating or not working that puzzles me. Plenty of people don't want a serious relationship, or kids, or even a job. I can even understand not socialising (I'm a bit of an introvert myself). What I find so puzzling is the lack of interest in life/being alive – you know, just going for a walk on a spring morning, or swimming in the sea, or looking at the stars. Is it depression do you think? I know of quite a few people like this – young people who play video games, smoke weed, and seem to have opted out of the world. I don't know if it's my imagination, but it seems to be more common. Is it just me?

Which ND people will be able to do if work is inclusive? I’m lucky and work part time for a very ND friendly company, which is sadly the exception at the present time.

Because if a significant proportion of people are shutting themselves away/ not working/ unable to function/ smoking dope all day then it's a massive problem. Even with more inclusivity there are going to be a lot more unable to work and possibly reliant on benefits etc. Of course it does depend on the numbers that are not able to work at all. We already don't have enough tax payers to fund the people who can't and don't work. There are some great schemes that can help people get into work and stay in work but there will need to be big changes.

My dad was an interesting man. He also was a professional photographer and had a pilot’s license, and he fought in the Korean War and worked with early computers. I have a number of pictures of him in his Carmelite robes and sandals. He taught me basic Latin when I was a kid.

From speaking to him, and doing some reading, religious life is not restful whatsoever, but it is structured…there is a routine. You are part of something and have a defined role and the community watches out for you.

I should also add that I know so many families with young people as described on this thread. My best friend's ds has dropped out of Uni and won't come out of his bedroom/ games all day, my sil's nephew has not come out of his room for many years- claiming disability benefits at high rate etc, my cousins son is managing to keep going to Uni currently just about but with severe cannabis issues and anxiety. Other friends have young adult kids with depression or severe anxiety making them unable to work etc. The scale of it all is enormous.

There is something inherently wrong with society that needs to change. It's a tough place.

There are also plenty in this position who have never touched cannabis or any other drug too.

I think the concern (the few "asshole" comments aside) from those who give a shit is that things will indeed have to change but not in a way one might hope. There is not going to be a bigger safety net than the overstretched one that is in place and is in danger of giving way completely. That is my genuine concern. Over and beyond concern for individuals (or their carers) who are existing rather than living, unable to leave the house, unable to socialise, unable to work, unable to experience joy, there is a general concern that a 'change in society' that is already at a crisis point demographically is not going to be a change that will benefit the increasing number of those who find society too tough to engage with.

It's not necessarily increasing, it's that society is becoming more complex and difficult for ND people to function in. I had to quit nursing at age 50 due to these increasing complexities. I'm an intelligent, experienced and capable individual, yet I couldn't cope. I couldn't carry on, yet I'd more or less managed during the previous 30 years.

Society has changed massively during the past 15-20 years and it's becoming more difficult to navigate. The odds are more stacked against ND people and we can't always hide it now. My dad was undoubtedly ND as was my fil. We can't hide anymore.

ND people aren't the ones who've created this shitty dog eat dog society. The mentally fragile and sick haven't done it either. They're the ones who pay the price though.

Someone mentioned religious orders? It's my belief that 'dropouts' should be facilitated to drop out by setting up farming communities where people can construct buildings and dwellings and then live off the land by planting food and raising animals. Become self sufficient. People could contribute their labour and learn skills and work in the outside world if they want, in order to raise money for the community, but they'd have companionship, a roof over their head and a safety net. Society wouldn't bother them and vice versa. No pisstakers, druggies or alcoholics allowed unless they can prove they've quit. All my ND friends agree that this would be great and a load off their minds regarding their older age and for their ND children. I'd be happy to nurse people like this, they're my people.

I don't expect anyone would donate land though.

"No pisstakers, druggies or alcoholics allowed" - how do you define "pisstaker"?

I actually do feel hopeful of a more flexible and inclusive society, as we begin to understand neurodivergence better. Maybe I’m overly optimistic but the change is there, as far as I can see. Awareness is increasing, recognition of neurodivergence is increasing (hence a higher rate of diagnosis) and it’s my hope that we will at some point move towards a more flexible society where we don’t need so many adjustments because the environment isn’t so hostile. Like I said, maybe I’m Pollyanna, but that is my hope.

What I do know is that saying ‘you’re not trying hard enough, do better’ to neurodivergent people isn’t going to reduce the number of people (both in and out of work) who need to claim benefits.

Mumsnet really is becoming the modern day Daily Mail.

It just shows that neurodivergent people aren’t a homogenous group. But I would hate nothing more than communal living and am utterly shit at anything practical.

For me, I can work when it is from home, flexible, and mainly writing based. Which I’m very lucky to have.

We do need to change the one size fits all approach and recognise that there is a place for everyone, using the particular brain they have.

Someone who's prepared to take, but give nothing in return. Everyone would have to muck in at the end of the day, but they'd still be free from the tyranny of indentured servitude paid employment and a toxic corporate workplace.

Well yes, sure, living communally wouldn't suit everyone and people need their own space so not everyone would want to be part of that. The point is they'd have a choice though, which is largely denied to people now. People can either be self employed, join the workforce or drop out. These aren't great choices. Most people - the struggling included - have to join the workforce. They then burn out after however long. Some kill themselves. I talk to a lot of ND, both online and in my life and employment is the greatest challenge and causes the greatest pain and distress. The adhd people in particular, really struggle because they present as more 'normal' and can't claim disability.

I don’t know if I’d be able to manage work if it wasn’t WFH or at least flexible working time wise . My work is both.

I did jobs working solely in the office, with fixed times for so many years, but I’d often be incredibly burnt out when I got home and would have very limited energy or patience for friends/partners etc. would lock myself in my room when I lived in flatshares as I’d had enough of peopling. Flex time even in the office was a huge improvement and then adding WFH a few days a week and then WFH full time which I do now has been even better for me.

For me one barrier to working in the office is also the shocking public transport. When I used to work in London I feel you’d leave to get to work on time, even early. But then so many train/bus delays would get you there late after being in a jammed packed carriage with people snapping at each other. Then on the way back it would be more of the same chaos. It all just shook my nerves.

most of us aren’t asking for the government to pay for their taxis to work or anything extravagant , we’re just asking to work from home in jobs where we don’t need to be in the office. That should be an easy win for employers to achieve more inclusivity but yet they’re resisting it.

It’s sad so many employers- and the government even - are forcing both ND and NT people, many of who worked very efficiently WFH in the pandemic, back to the office when it suits them, and for no logical reason .

All the while claiming they’re “helping” disabled people back to work. Of course people can ask for reasonable adjustments but most people won’t get to wfh full time if their employers are asking everyone else to come in.

My experience with different agencies (not personally, but observation of others), and maybe others have different experiences, is that they try to get people into full time work. Not everyone is capable of that. There need to be jobs for a variety of hours. Even if just a couple of hours a week to start. Sometimes it feels like setting people up to fail.

Totally agree. My DD works 8 hours routinely in one job She also works as hoc for a self employed lady when she is needed. She works really hard for her.

However she needs a lot of down time inbetween and there is no way she could survive in what the govt consider acceptable.

She claims pip and lives at home with us. She can't look after herself well Dispite the fact she is really intelligent and creative and works when she can. She really needs the pip as she needs so much support compared to her brother.

Yes, employers are being perverse by insisting upon this for everyone. I used to work for a disability charity, yet they couldn't put a reasonable adjustment in place for me. I was asking for something simple and they said they'd do it, and even claimed they had, yet they hadn't. It was complete gaslighting and I thought I was going crazy. I mean, if a disability employer can't manage it, then there's no hope, so I had to quit.

If the economy is going to improve and taxes be collected, then these rigid and toxic Amazon employers need to change.

The most technologically advanced society in the world is South Korea with Japan up there too. They both have high young adult drop out rates and high suicide rates. People aren't having children either. These populations are demonstrating a high level of distress. They have toxic work cultures and the people aren't coping. We're not far behind. We're not the only country experiencing this drop out phenomenon.

It’s also a massive assumption that people who live a more solitary life are all ‘existing rather than living, unable to leave the house, unable to socialise, unable to work, unable to experience joy’!

This will probably apply to some, who are struggling with acute mental health issues, or ND burnout. But some people experience a better quality of life once they allow themselves to retreat.

I personally function much better, and feel a million times happier, now that I manage the sensory and social demands of life in accordance with my neurodivergence. To some, I may look isolated, but I’m really very happy. Happier than I’ve ever been. I work from home, I mainly interact with my own children and pets, although I do have close friends who live a long way away, I don’t meet up in person very often.

I considered joining a book club this new year, then quickly realised that I don’t want to and would dread going. I used to do these things because I felt I ‘should’ and because it had been drilled into me that successful and well adjusted people Have Hobbies, and that solitary interests were inferior.

I do contribute to society, in raising my children, in the part time work I do, and have and will contribute in other ways at various stages of my life. More so because I know myself and manage my own needs well.

Saying that we find society ‘too tough to engage with’ implies that this way of life is wrong. Or less valuable. I don’t believe that it is. Society doesn’t suit me, generally. It’s not that it’s too hard, but I function best in a bubble. Others may find that ‘too tough’.

Oh, and I don’t smoke weed either!

Ah really…I don’t know much about agencies, I assume by agencies you mean government /charity organisations whose mission is supposed to be to get disabled people working?

I was just mainly thinking about people like me, who are very professionally capable and happy to WFH full time but would struggle in the office.In fact I actually work two jobs - one is freelance in a creative career . But yes there needs to be more appreciation of various needs on a wider level.

I’ve been in this role for a while, I really should be moving onto senior better paid positions but realistically with this move to get people back to the office, I’m not sure if I could find anywhere that accommodated me like my present job does - which is partly why I do this plus freelance for now.

I actually do feel hopeful of a more flexible and inclusive society, as we begin to understand neurodivergence better. Maybe I’m overly optimistic but the change is there, as far as I can see.

@WaitingForMojo I’m inclined to agree, because honestly, I think society was far less inclusive 30 years ago, when the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) was introduced.
I imagine that prior to 1995, most employers wouldn’t consider offering reasonable adjustments, you either wouldn’t be offered the job in the first place or be fired if you needed them.

As you say, Mojo, awareness and understanding is increasing, albeit slowly.

"It’s also a massive assumption that people who live a more solitary life are all ‘existing rather than living, unable to leave the house, unable to socialise, unable to work, unable to experience joy’!" It's you who made the assumption I was referring to people who live a more solitary life. If I had meant people who lived a more solitary life, I would have said a people who live a more solitary life. I live a more solitary life.

Please seek some support and consider medication, ask a family member to phone the gp and go to an appointment with you.

One thing that I noticed about the lockdown period was how the general population couldn't cope with it and became mentally ill and distressed etc. Yet ND/mentally ill people are expected to live their whole lives in a situation for which they're absolutely not suited and expected to just get on with it. What if lockdown lasted forever? Would NT people cope? Absolutely not, they'd probably riot, yet we're supposed to spend up to 80 years or so living under the equivalent?

I do take medication and am under the local MH team. I have a psychiatrist and a care coordinator.

So what do you suggest? Everyone live in permanent enforced lockdown?