Free Luigi - crazy

[WillowTit]

The dark fandom behind CEO murder suspect Luigi Mangione - BBC News

this is crazy, but would it happen in UK?

Unfortunately most people get their news (are fed their news) from sources owned by right wing rich guys who are interested in keeping people frothing about something so that they can carry on getting richer.

Are there any estimated numbers how many people died because his management refused their claims/treatment?

I am still shocked that shooting someone on the street is seen as an option... In the same time, denied healthcare is literally a question of life and death. And I wouldn't be entirely shocked if someone aimed for some of those responsible for opioid crisis in the US for example.

I am still shocked that shooting someone on the street is seen as an option.

How about ambushing and blowing up their car ? Which is what happened to Reinhard Heydrich. Justified or not ? The Nazis certainly thought not (which is why Lidice isn't there any more).

Seems wherever you look, it's shades of grey.

From the perspective of a higher moral principle, the killing of a tyrant is not a crime. I, too, approve of the assassination of Heydrich.

That's the thing. Heydrich was an occupation leader during world war and was blown up by soldiers of an exile government. If Ukrainian's managed to shoot Putin on the street, I would see it as a similar case.

My shock is about this difference. Health insurance, no matter how badly managed doesn't resemble a war to me. And seeing Americans approving it is suggesting maybe there are more similarities than I thought.

My shock is about this difference. Health insurance, no matter how badly managed doesn't resemble a war to me. And seeing Americans approving it is suggesting maybe there are more similarities than I thought.

The words "tyranny" and "tyrant" are mentioned four times in total in the U.S. Declaration of Independence:

1. "Tyranny" is used twice:
2. Referring to the oppressive actions of the King of Great Britain:
3. "The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States."
4. Highlighting their justification for independence:
5. "A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."
6. "Tyrant" is used twice:
7. Describing the King:
8. "Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States."
9. Denouncing the King:
10. "A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."

Thus, the themes of tyranny and oppression are central to the document, emphasizing the colonists' grievances against the British monarchy.

If we're going there, how about the refusal of lifesaving medical treatment to those without the funds to pay for it (and taking their payments with the intention of not fulfilling the contract to pay for them if needed)? It certainly reduces the number of disabled, sick and lower earning people whilst also effectively seizing any property they did have.

@SerendipityJane
Thus, the themes of tyranny and oppression are central to the document, emphasizing the colonists' grievances against the British monarchy.

I'm not sure what your point is. Does this CEO qualify as a tyrant in your eyes?
For me tyranny is typically connected with either whole nations, or a very local level (domestic violence). Qualifying a behaviour of a corporate in this way is the surprising part for me. (And I heard about the concept before, but this case made it more real)

That's one of the ideas I started from at 14:04, acknowledging that his management has casualties which gets it out of the "normal" realm.

Still, the connection between something I know from history books and what happened in the context of war and a shooting a manger walking on the street isn't doesn't fit into my usual mental patterns, so it is surprising for me.

Just throwing a few things into the mix. It's not like I have the answers.

One of the seismic shifts in the concept of trade was the acceptance of businesses, corporations, partnerships and companies as legal entities in their own right. This allowed investment safe in the knowledge that the legal system would protect companies as if they are people.

However, it seems we've allowed a "heads you win, tails we lose" situation to arise whereby people running companies are protected by law whilst simultaneously being exempt from it. Just for a single UK example, look at Grenfell

Returning to Heydrich - did he personally kill anyone who wasn't a soldier in war ? Yes, he may have been a legitimate military target.

Qualifying a behaviour of a corporate in this way is the surprising part for me.

Tyranny has a power / control component. The exercise of power that is frequently unreasonable and often arbitrary, People living under tyranny are doing so because they have few other reasonable options.

That fits the modus operandi of healthcare insurers, imo. Their decisions are arbitrary and unreasonable (powered by AI, unsupported by medical need, often breaching the contract between insurer and insured), cause distress (at a minimum) and there are no other options for the vast, vast majority of Americans.

In general the US and UK legal systems make it impossible for people to enforce their rights. And if you can't enforce a right, you may as well not have it.

@SerendipityJane
Returning to Heydrich - did he personally kill anyone who wasn't a soldier in war ? Yes, he may have been a legitimate military target.

Afaik he was leading nazi secret services, crystal night, lead the conference for "final solution of Jewish question" and more, which made him a war criminal responsible for deaths of millions before he even got to the post in the Protectorate.

Looking only on the Protectorate part, it's tricky.
He was tasked to focus on resistance fighters. Afaik the first thing he did in the function was to imprison and charge with treason the prime minister (sentenced to death and executed later), who was a Czech army general actually working for the resistance. Resistance weren't soldiers in the sense of organised army, but many wouldn't classify as civilians either. (I'm oversimplifying now, holocaust, martial law, ...)
Anyway, he was targeted more for political reasons (Czech position in international politics and post-war arrangements) than the evil things he did personally with his hands.

Anyway, I wanted to say thank you very much to everyone joining on the last two pages. Maybe we hijacked the thread a bit, but it was worth it.

I still don't like to see how the ugly things from history books are connecting with the real world now (even in "our" part of the world), but you are right that the connections don't start with Luigi.

Are we ignoring the thousands of people murdered by Brian Johnson? They matter too. As do all the kids killed by school shooters, and the police. Luigi has started a revolution and it's about time. Maybe when more billionaires have to watch their backs, they will think twice about corporate murder for profit? 🤷‍♀️

It wasn’t judged as murder 💁🏽‍♀️

The whole narrative of this story is weird. It's being told like it's a Hollywood film.

I just read that Luigi is in the same prison as P Diddy, and that his lawyer is married to P Diddy's too?!? Bizarre.

Seems weird on the surface, but not so much in reality perhaps.

Both were arrested for violent offences in the same jurisdiction. They're being held at the only federal prison in New York City, the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn.

Both can afford very, very expensive lawyers (crowd funders have raised over $200,000 for Luigi's defence fund so far).

I know! Supporting the American health industry that has killed countless people, and bankrupted and destroyed the lives of many others.

Alleged*

MrsSkylerWhite · 26/12/2024 12:30
Can’t believe people here are basically justifying murder.

TinkerTiger · Today 16:37
I know! Supporting the American health industry that has killed countless people, and bankrupted and destroyed the lives of many others.

Very drool.

But surely one persons murder is another persons unfortunate collateral damage ? How do folk feel about the killing of unarmed defenceless civilians in Dresden or Hiroshima ? Situations where it's easy to use the anonymity of the tens of thousands dead as a fig leaf to conscience, whereas in this case the single victim has a name, face and family.

This is why racism - and all othering - is so insidiously dangerous. It's the blanket of cover under which any atrocity is suddenly justified.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_Against_Fire

I know! Supporting the American health industry that has killed countless people, and bankrupted and destroyed the lives of many others.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

surely one persons murder is another persons unfortunate collateral damage ?

Yes, quite. And the body count on the health insurance industry's side runs into tens of thousands.

Compared to just one so far on the side of the patients they exploit.

Is there any concrete proof that Luigi did it?

The photos they have of the shooter matches ONE photo that was captured before Luigi was found and was used in the manhunt. The backpack matches, it’s a light colour. The other photos showing Luigi’s face show him with a black backpack and different coat. Many people are of the opinion that it is not Luigi, based on facial features, particularly the eyebrows. It is the ONLY photo that isn’t included in the official complaint.

Whatever Luigi’s involvement may be in the crime remains to be seen, but he was not the shooter.

The photos on the left match the image of the shooter on CCTV