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YouMeandBrie · 24/12/2024 14:57

Workhardcryharder · 24/12/2024 14:49

Are there really? How often are big changes made because of a nice peaceful protest?

You’re right, let’s just shoot everyone you don’t like. Problem solved.

fromthevault · 24/12/2024 15:00

A certain section of the populace seem to have moved beyond the pale in their opinions in recent years.

Which 'certain section of the populace' are you referring to here?

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 24/12/2024 15:00

noblegiraffe · 24/12/2024 14:19

I don't deny that. However the minute you decide it's acceptable to gun certain people down in the street in cold blood the question is raised 'who is next on the list?'

Where do you draw the line? Is it acceptable to gun down Big Tobacco bosses? Petroleum company leaders? What about church leaders who ignored child abuse?

It's a really dangerous road to go down.

Will it be OK to kill abortion providers?

I'm sure in some people's eyes that they're murderers ending innocent lives, so it should be fine, yeah?

For the avoidance of doubt, that's not my opinion but this whole thing is opening the door for people to play God and decide who gets to live or die.
It's OK when you agree with it, not so much when they come after you.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 24/12/2024 15:22

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 24/12/2024 15:00

It's a really dangerous road to go down.

Will it be OK to kill abortion providers?

I'm sure in some people's eyes that they're murderers ending innocent lives, so it should be fine, yeah?

For the avoidance of doubt, that's not my opinion but this whole thing is opening the door for people to play God and decide who gets to live or die.
It's OK when you agree with it, not so much when they come after you.

for people to play God and decide who gets to live or die

I think there's an AI system available for that. Have you considered contacting United Healthcare?

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 24/12/2024 15:34

His sons don’t deserve more empathy than all the other thousands of children who lost their parents due to them being turned down by the insurance company.

//

This

Cornettoninja · 24/12/2024 15:38

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 24/12/2024 15:00

It's a really dangerous road to go down.

Will it be OK to kill abortion providers?

I'm sure in some people's eyes that they're murderers ending innocent lives, so it should be fine, yeah?

For the avoidance of doubt, that's not my opinion but this whole thing is opening the door for people to play God and decide who gets to live or die.
It's OK when you agree with it, not so much when they come after you.

But the door on deciding it’s ok for certain people to decide on the fate of others is already wide open. America has the death penalty and an unfathomable (to me) degree of comfort with the idea that not having enough capital makes you deserving of living with ill health or at the worst end of the scale, death.

the argument you’re making is already defunct in relation to American society.

LostGhost · 24/12/2024 16:26

IF Luigi is found guilty he should absolutely face jail time for that. But the free Luigi movement has started because at the end of the day he has allegedly killed ONE man (who arguably killed many more but moving on).

So taking his crime at face value he killed ONE person, that is usually 10-15 years in prison with the chance of parol. They're trying to pin 11 charges and charge him with the act of terrorism. They're also trying to charge him at a federal level so they don't have to have a jury. They are making an absolute mess of this and keep parading him in front of the cameras surrounded by 20 armed guards and the NYC mayor. I've genuinely seen Trump/Biden/King Charles walking around with less security.

I think they've messed it up so much with their media circus they genuinely don't know what to do now;

  1. He can't really have a fair trial as they won't be able to find 12-15 of his peers where at least one won't find him innocent (as so many people have issues with the US healthcare system and they can't exactly have a jury full of billionaires, thats just corrupt)
  2. They can't sentence him without a trial
  3. They can't proceed down the stupid path they're currently on charging him with terrorism because that would cause an uprising and riots. You can shoot up a school and get a few years in prison for it but you shoot ONE rich man and the world ends?
Cornettoninja · 24/12/2024 16:55

You can shoot up a school and get a few years in prison for it but you shoot ONE rich man and the world ends?

it’s an unpalatable point for them isn’t it?

Moonwalkies · 24/12/2024 17:03

Which school shooters have have just got a few years in prison?

fromthevault · 24/12/2024 17:07

Cornettoninja · 24/12/2024 16:55

You can shoot up a school and get a few years in prison for it but you shoot ONE rich man and the world ends?

it’s an unpalatable point for them isn’t it?

Exactly.

112 fatal school shootings in the USA this year alone. 488 mass shootings altogether. Thousands of individual gun deaths. Where were the perp walks, surrounded by armed guards, in front of the world's media for all those shooters?

AllPlayedOut · 24/12/2024 17:17

I really don’t understand the hero worship. He’s from a very wealthy and powerful family. His family have more likely than not exploited others while making their millions because it’s very difficult to become that rich without detriment to the people below you. They opened assisting living facilities for a start which is effectively making money from others’ misery and which are more often than not poorly run with minimal staff on low wages by people who know little about care, and in the US many made their money by also exploiting Medicaid. https://harpers.org/archive/2020/09/elder-abuse-nursing-homes-covid-19/

The system likely benefited his family as much as anyone. That money put him through a prestigious private school, college and gave him an extremely comfortable lifestyle and yet he, with all his wealth and privilege, is being hailed as a hero who understands the plight of your average American?

Did he bother to look at his own family and wonder who they might have leeched off and stepped on on their road to riches? Or is that too uncomfortably close to home?

Of everything that he could have done if he was genuinely interested in helping people I could think of several more effective ways than shooting a man who is only going to be replaced by the next chosen candidate. He could use his family’s wealth and influence to lobby for change, to pay off debts, to offer free or reduced treatment, become a politician etc

And yes there absolutely needs to be changes in the healthcare system. It’s grotesque that people are penalised and left to die or suffer major debt for getting sick or becoming injured but the death of a CEO won’t change that. They’re ultimately figureheads. Another will be along in a minute and the wheel will keep turning. Laws need to be changed not people shot. The American people are not going to do themselves any good by spending more time lionising a wealthy killer than coming together and actively working to change the system.

Elder Abuse, by Andrew Cockburn

Nursing homes, the coronavirus, and the bottom line

https://harpers.org/archive/2020/09/elder-abuse-nursing-homes-covid-19

Lovelysummerdays · 24/12/2024 17:17

biscuitandcake · 19/12/2024 08:50

Health insurance companies aren't evil though, in the way that fire isn't evil. Its in the nature of profit making corporations to prioritise making a profit - that's what efficiency means in that context, and the most efficient corporation survives in a competitive market. The CEO was fulfilling his role within that system - its called capitalism. Sometimes you want that - when it comes to selling goods in a competitive environment its by far the best way to ensure the best price for consumers and that production/supply keeps pace with demand. Otherwise you end up with soviet factories producing masses of the same type of shoe for everyone. What is weird is people/politicians (especially in America but elsewhere also) who decide that because private enterprise is really good at that one thing, we also need that "efficiency" elsewhere. So public services, utilities, healthcare will work more "efficiently" under private management than public management. They do, but full "efficiency" to a profit making healthcare company = a system where everyone pays for insurance but no-ones claims are allowed. Which one day I am sure they will achieve.

But killing one random guy won't make any difference to that issue and the shooter is crazy for thinking it will. Its like setting fire to your house and then complaining that the fire is evil because it burned everything and shooting into the flames in revenge. But American's have just elected a human flamethrower to public office so I guess they see things differently. Maybe the best way to fight fire is with fire. Meh.

I was watching something on this and the chap made an interesting (to me) point. He said to health insurance providers people are not consumers or service users or any of the other things they talk about they are just numbers. Which is why when they go away or die it doesn’t matter to the health care company. People don’t see that ceo as a person he’s been reduced to a number, a representative of his kind which is why there is a lack of empathy for his death despite the media pushing the family angle.

Worth noting that he was on his way to an investors meeting when he died. They knew he’d been shot outside the building. The investor meeting went ahead.

AllPlayedOut · 24/12/2024 17:20

Which school shooters have have just got a few years in prison?

I was just about to ask that. Those who survived, considering how many kill themselves or are killed by the Police, mostly seem to have received life sentences or multiple life sentences so I’m curious to learn which school shooters have only received a few years.

AllPlayedOut · 24/12/2024 17:22

As for the numbers of armed police considering how many death threats there have been made against the police and anyone else involved in his case and that people are threatening to attempt to free him, it’s hardly surprising that there’s a public show of force to discourage such attempts.

noblegiraffe · 24/12/2024 17:37

Cornettoninja · 24/12/2024 14:31

On a basic level I don’t disagree, but that relies on everyone playing by the same rules. Corporations knowingly cause irreversible harms and then hide behind lawyers and politicians. It’s not a level playing field and certainly not one with a healthy respect for rules, wellbeing or fairness.

Luigi and others like him (like my earlier example of a parent hurting their child’s abuser) should absolutely stand before a court and face judgement for their actions. But I’m also not comfortable with deciding that David has to play by the same rules as Goliath.

There's a bit of a fudge there - you think Luigi should face judgement for his actions but are not comfortable with deciding the Dave has to play by the same rules as Goliath - he shot someone in cold blood in the street. You're not comfortable with deciding that's an unacceptable way to resolve a dispute with a healthcare company?

You want Goliath to change the rules for healthcare - absolutely no doubt that the US healthcare system is horribly broken and this man made decisions that led to the death of people who had paid into insurance schemes.

But - there is no perfect healthcare scheme that can pay out for every single health claim. There will always be people denied healthcare (as there is on the NHS - NICE has to approve medications so there are lots that are simply unavailable to patients in England). This healthcare could improve their quality of life, or extend it and they will obviously be devastated not to receive it. Are you still not comfortable with deciding whether it's ok to shoot the CEO of the improved healthcare company because it is still denying some claims?

Simonjt · 24/12/2024 17:38

AllPlayedOut · 24/12/2024 17:20

Which school shooters have have just got a few years in prison?

I was just about to ask that. Those who survived, considering how many kill themselves or are killed by the Police, mostly seem to have received life sentences or multiple life sentences so I’m curious to learn which school shooters have only received a few years.

How many school shooters have been charged with terrorism?

WillowTit · 24/12/2024 17:50

Worth noting that he was on his way to an investors meeting when he died. They knew he’d been shot outside the building. The investor meeting went ahead.

that is appalling @Lovelysummerdays

OP posts:
AllPlayedOut · 24/12/2024 17:58

I have no idea. I do know that Ethan Crumbley was charged with terrorism as others have been for making threats to do the same. That’s a pretty recent development I believe. It may become more common now.

www.thetrace.org/2022/01/mass-shooting-domestic-terrorism-oxford-high-school/

The definition of terrorism also varies by state so it can be difficult to compare. Even the FBI seem rather vague on when it is and isn’t. Personally though I associate it with political, religious or ideological aims.

https://jagwire.augusta.edu/expert-opinion-why-arent-mass-shootings-considered-acts-of-terrorism/

Expert opinion: Why aren't mass shootings considered acts of terrorism?

“Looking at the incident in Buffalo, in my estimation and based on the evidence that I’ve seen, it fits all the criteria to be considered a form of domestic terrorism.”

https://jagwire.augusta.edu/expert-opinion-why-arent-mass-shootings-considered-acts-of-terrorism

Workhardcryharder · 24/12/2024 18:11

YouMeandBrie · 24/12/2024 14:57

You’re right, let’s just shoot everyone you don’t like. Problem solved.

Did I say that? One can agree the shooter be punished but understand something drastic needed to happen to instigate change

YankTank · 24/12/2024 18:18

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 24/12/2024 15:00

It's a really dangerous road to go down.

Will it be OK to kill abortion providers?

I'm sure in some people's eyes that they're murderers ending innocent lives, so it should be fine, yeah?

For the avoidance of doubt, that's not my opinion but this whole thing is opening the door for people to play God and decide who gets to live or die.
It's OK when you agree with it, not so much when they come after you.

They already do—Dr Tiller in KS.

AllPlayedOut · 24/12/2024 18:23

Did I say that? One can agree the shooter be punished but understand something drastic needed to happen to instigate change

Do you genuinely think that this is going to result in any real change?

And who else is on your list of people it’s ok to shoot in order to try to achieve your desired changes?

SerendipityJane · 24/12/2024 18:31

AllPlayedOut · 24/12/2024 17:58

I have no idea. I do know that Ethan Crumbley was charged with terrorism as others have been for making threats to do the same. That’s a pretty recent development I believe. It may become more common now.

www.thetrace.org/2022/01/mass-shooting-domestic-terrorism-oxford-high-school/

The definition of terrorism also varies by state so it can be difficult to compare. Even the FBI seem rather vague on when it is and isn’t. Personally though I associate it with political, religious or ideological aims.

https://jagwire.augusta.edu/expert-opinion-why-arent-mass-shootings-considered-acts-of-terrorism/

Seems as with the UK, "terrorist" only applies to non-whites. Hence the killer of Jo Cox wasn't a right wing terrorist. Just misunderstood.

noblegiraffe · 24/12/2024 18:37

If (and I don't know this but it seems to be suggested on this thread) the intention was to force change in the healthcare system by scaring other execs into thinking they might also be murdered, then would that not count as terrorism?

AllPlayedOut · 24/12/2024 18:39

Will it be OK to kill abortion providers?
I'm sure in some people's eyes that they're murderers ending innocent lives, so it should be fine, yeah?

I remember the spate of killings and mailings at abortion clinics and elsewhere of abortiob providers in the ‘90s and beyond.

I recognise a lot of the same justifications that were used then that are being used to justify the killing of Brian Thompson( He/Dr killed hundreds/thousands vs 1 death, preventing more future deaths, for the greater good, he didn’t care about his victims, had it coming, I’m not condoning it but.. etc) yet I can’t imagine that most of the people lauding Luigi’s alleged actions would be in favour of shooting Doctors who provided abortions for women. Yet the rhetoric and excuses are very much the same as those used by anti abortion activists when excusing the murders of physicians and their staff.

AllPlayedOut · 24/12/2024 18:45

Seems as with the UK, "terrorist" only applies to non-whites. Hence the killer of Jo Cox wasn't a right wing terrorist. Just misunderstood.

Oh don’t start that again.People always parrot this on a thread whether or not they have any evidence. Speaking of the UK There have been plenty of right wing white individuals who have been found guilty of terrorism.

Here are just a few.

https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/media/32958988/extreme-right-wing-terrorist-sentenced-to-23-years.pdf

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/27/uk-teenager-daniel-harris-sentenced-far-right-videos-us-killers

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/28/far-right-extremist-who-set-off-fireball-convicted-of-terrorism-offences-vaughn-dolphin

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-65069082

https://www.counterterrorism.police.uk/extreme-right-wing-terror-group-sentenced-to-more-than-30-years-imprisonment/

https://www.copfs.gov.uk/about-copfs/news/man-shared-instructions-on-building-3d-printed-firearms/

https://www.cps.gov.uk/cps/news/co-founder-right-wing-terror-group-convicted

https://www.warwickshire.police.uk/news/warwickshire/news/2020/november/teen-sentenced-for-right-wing-terrorism-offences

https://www.gloucestershire.police.uk/news/gloucestershire/news/gloucestershire-boy-sentenced-for-terrorism-offences/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-63526659.amp

https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/media/32958988/extreme-right-wing-terrorist-sentenced-to-23-years.pdf

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