Uni suicide - tragedy but is this the only recourse for women that experience assault ?

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14060637/Oxford-University-student-20-killed-cancelled-female-friend-told-pals-felt-uncomfortable-sexual-encounter.hotlink

Superficially this is a tragedy and the sites is was the major factor for that led to it. However given the extremely low probability of criminal conviction of the university acting from a disciplinary point of view are women justified in using ostracism as the only till they have left for justice and as a warning to others that may consider assault a crime where there are in reality limited chance of consequence?

The woman concerned comes across as psychologically cruel and the coroner warns against 'cancel culture' but there seems more to this and perhaps the woman concerned was justified in talking to their friendship group at the very least as warning to other woemn?

Is this the social equivalent of a lunch mob with no proven guilt or the actions of a woman who knew there is typically no justice from authorities in such cases?

Well and that was exactly the point of my post. No-one else has said that this situation is a distinct possibility. Indeed very familiar at mixed colleges. Most posters have gone straight to an assumption of some sort of assault which may well be extremely unfair.

I agree with you @ThatllBeTheDay . I intend to have a conversation with my 2 about this as I feel there are some important topics about consent, not being sure about how to deal with complex social situations, ostracising, being ostracised, self harm and cancel culture in the wider sense.

I can't quite align all this in my head as it's so tragic for all concerned and there are no clear "wrong ones" or a person or behaviour to blame. Do you all speak to your teens or YA about these things and if yes, what approach do you take?

I can't help but also feel that being part of a highly ambitious go-get crowd that is all about succeeding since early childhood (which Oxbridge candidates these days mostly are) also comes with many emotional hazards and pressures.

I've also always felt that the later teens leave the whole dating thing the better but now I'm not so sure about this approach. Perhaps it is better to start dating slightly younger and go through the learning experiences to build resilience and become "streetwise" and mature before uni.

People on this thread are saying that the woman shouldn't have told her friends about something that upset her, though. And also saying that she is to blame for the young man's suicide, both of which are horrible and unfair things to suggest. And I don't think things have changed that much from the 90s, although her friends being prepared to confront the man they thought had assaulted her is different, I suppose. Certainly the victim blaming on this thread suggests that the attitude of some Mumsnet posters is still to blame the woman, whatever the facts, for the behaviour of men.

She is absolutely not responsible either for the behaviour of her friends, or the suicide. It's terrible to suggest she is, and I really hope she never reads this thread. The irony of a thread where people think a man was effectively bullied to death- where really vicious comments have been made about a woman who suffered some kind of, at best, uncomfortable experience- and simply talked to her friends about it.

The Coroner's 'Prevention of Future Deaths' report has been uploaded to the judiciary website today:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Alexander-Rogers-Prevention-of-Future-Deaths-Report-2024-0624.pdf

Two quick observations:
(1) the use of the phrase cancel culture is unfortunate. To me at least it's used where students are reportedly trying to silence political or religious views for example pro Israel or right wing Conservatives
(2) The 'exclusion' of Rogers, which the coroner explicitly says I did not find on the balance of probabilities that this culture specifically caused or contributed to Alexander’s death, but it did give rise to a concern that circumstances creating a risk of future deaths could occur is not new and is not restricted to Universities. It was a thing when I was at school and is ever present in books from Billy Bunter to Enid Blyton's tales of Mallory Towers etc.

What do you mean by "the College system"?

I agree with this, there were plenty of other options other than a whispering campaign but never making an official complaint by his “friendship group”. I hope these malicious whisperers feel guilt and shame forever

The irony of a thread where people think a man was effectively bullied to death- where really vicious comments have been made about a woman who suffered some kind of, at best, uncomfortable experience- and simply talked to her friends about it. This💯

It was a thing when I was at school and is ever present in books from Billy Bunter to Enid Blyton's tales of Mallory Towers etc. I'd interested in which Malory Towers stories this was a theme?

@Babadookinthewardrobe it doesn't look like there was a campaign, just a girl sharing her bad experience with her closest friends and the friends taking sides with the girl against this young man. You can't really have a campaign in 4 days anyways. I wish people stopped shaming this young woman, she had every right to share her story with her closest friends. What is this wish to muzzle women who have had an adverse experience with a man? It's not right.

@PoolingInSchool the reference to Malory Towers was as a general boarding school yarn in which being 'sent to Coventry' was a thing.

If it didn't actually happen in that series then I apologise.

In social terms they operate in much the same way as a small rural village where everyone knows everyone and everyone knows everyone else's business including who's dating who, who's split up with who, who's stayed over with who. And all these things to be at the core of gossip with things seemingly heightened by the other pressures on the students. Work hard, play hard, gossip hard.

With Malory Towers you at least got given a set time period for when you were sent to Coventry.

When ds broke up with his girlfriend a few years ago she was very upset and angry and her friends sent him to Coventry. However he went overseas where he met his now wife so he didn’t experience its effects.
Not sure how long this state of affairs is supposed to last and if he meets any of these people at a funeral in 50 years time whether they will still be ignoring him.

That's so awful of your son's and his ex's friendship group. I find it so off that people run a pack like this. Is this some sort of British middle /upper class social phenomenon, the freezing out and 'sending to coventry'?

Is this some sort of British middle /upper class social phenomenon, the freezing out and 'sending to coventry'?

I don’t know. I don’t know what backgrounds Alexander Rogers’s former friends were from.
However I guess those who cancelled various academics such as Kathleen Stock and Jo Phoenix came from all backgrounds - but I don’t know for certain.

DS and his flat mates at uni have recently disassociated from a student. He made up all sorts of lies about his past medical history and claimed to have been diagnosed with a recurrence of cancer during the first few weeks of term. He wasn't a flat mate but would spend time with them. It came out that he was lying.

What made matters worse with DS’s flat was that my sister, his aunt, was dying of cancer in a hospice during October. His flatmates knew about it and were horrified that this young man made up a story presumably for sympathy.

When it all came out they made sure that they protected DS from the actual fall out ( he was ill at the time so couldn’t be bothered to go and see what all the shouting was about).

Like most social groups they deal with it and meter out their own punishment.

Since we don’t know what “uncomfortable” refers to we have no idea whether the level of behaviour from his friends was appropriate or not.

Presumably pretending you have cancer when one of your group has a relative about to peg it is not taken lightly.

The young man who committed suicide may have seriously sexually assaulted the girl or he may have just slept with her before the group felt it was socially acceptable after her split with another member of the group. Who knows?

That's so awful of your son's and his ex's friendship group. I find it so off that people run a pack like this.

I choose not to waste time on people who treat my friends badly. That isn't running a pack, it is having standards.

Where do you imagine complaining to the police / university would of gotten her? The bar is so incredibly high for women complaining of sexual violence. There may of been a chat, a he said she said scenario and that’s the end of it. My dating days are past 🤞 but really it wasn’t uncommon to give your social circle a heads up when blokes were pushy / aggressive in bed or a dick after a few beers.

I have always felt sad and angry about the fact that none of my university friends seemed to think twice about continuing to be friends with the member of our group who tried to sexually assault me. From this thread I've learnt that apparently they were all quite right to do so because believing me and deciding they therefore didn't want to be friends with him would have been bullying. Really?

From the article, it sounds as though he knew that he'd done something very wrong (unforgivable). The girl could have made a formal complaint which would have much worse for him.

'next day, one of the pair, E, found a note from Alexander indicating his intention to kill himself.
'The note, addressed to C, E, and D, expressed remorse for his actions and a belief that they were unintentional but unforgivable.'

Or he could have been socially insecure and made a move on the newly ex girlfriend of one of the friendship group while both he and she were loosened up with drink then just wanted to apologise to make the whole thing go away.

Nobody who doesn't know the situation personally can guess either way from the media reports. It sits uncomfortably knowing that that the person who took his own life could have been quite innocent of anything bar treading on the toes of a more alpha ex boyfriend and that his close family could be even more distraught reading the accusations which are flying because of the cautious reporting.

Maybe the self policing by students is a good thing as pp have indicated there is limited d recourse from authorities for sexual assault and many assaults occurs where is boils down to he said she said. Instead of men brushing this under the carpet as in previous years maybe they are behaving in a moral manner and shunning those that have committed assault if they have no reason to disbelieve a woman.

Possibly the coroner has to take into account family feelings in his report and as there was no judicial case then he has to be extremely careful about his wording. The coroner simply could have said had sex not uncomfortable sex so I think there is a reason for the word choice.

It just seems like a moral code from another era that sleeping with someone's ex constitutes something unforgivable that pressures you into taking your own life.

It just seems like a moral code from another era that sleeping with someone's ex constitutes something unforgivable that pressures you into taking your own life

I wouldn't have said it was a thing about era at all. Casual sex and mixed colleges have been around for roughly the same sort of time and I would say that my children and their friends are significantly more in tune with social morality than my generation were. Mobile phones may a big difference to how quickly word spreads too.

But obviously it's just one possibility among several.

There is so much speculation here around the circumstances of this tragic story. I am uncomfortable with it being debated as an online case study, even extending to the purely speculated soundness of mind of the young man. Suicide can be pure desperation without a history of diagnosed or undiagnosed mental illness. The only certainties here are that the young man has paid the ultimate price and the young woman will carry this tragedy with her through her life. How would you feel reading this thread if either of them were your child?

@mids2019 said Possibly the coroner has to take into account family feelings in his report and as there was no judicial case then he has to be extremely careful about his wording. The coroner simply could have said had sex not uncomfortable sex so I think there is a reason for the word choice.

I think a lot of these Prevention of Future Deaths reports are written as much for the family, who I think can request them, as for any real good they will do.

It’s difficult to say though. It sounds like his perceptions were distorted by heightened emotions. Presumably if he’d done something illegal she would have contacted the police rather than her friends. Something that made her “uncomfortable” rather than furious and devastated doesn’t indicate the worst kind of infringement (although I’m not defending poor sexual boundaries).

But either way a misdeed of this type is not unforgivable, particularly if you understand what you did wrong, are genuinely remorseful, get help, and never do it again.

If the girl involved had known he was genuinely suicidal over it, I am sure she could have forgiven him. But even if she didn’t, other people would.

Who knows what happened
It would seem something was regretted and made her feel uncomfortable
It would be more usual to confide in female friends
The ex boyfriend reaction would seem the clue - it would seem that relationship wasn’t really done
I don’t feel Alexander did anything terribly wrong or it would be unlikely for his parents to be involved in highlighting the case
The poor boy is who I feel sorry for