Uni suicide - tragedy but is this the only recourse for women that experience assault ?

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14060637/Oxford-University-student-20-killed-cancelled-female-friend-told-pals-felt-uncomfortable-sexual-encounter.hotlink

Superficially this is a tragedy and the sites is was the major factor for that led to it. However given the extremely low probability of criminal conviction of the university acting from a disciplinary point of view are women justified in using ostracism as the only till they have left for justice and as a warning to others that may consider assault a crime where there are in reality limited chance of consequence?

The woman concerned comes across as psychologically cruel and the coroner warns against 'cancel culture' but there seems more to this and perhaps the woman concerned was justified in talking to their friendship group at the very least as warning to other woemn?

Is this the social equivalent of a lunch mob with no proven guilt or the actions of a woman who knew there is typically no justice from authorities in such cases?

What poor sexual behaviour?

All unis consent training programmes, Oxford included

https://www.ox.ac.uk/students/welfare/supportservice/consent-training

I’m going to leave the thread now, with a plea to carefully read the actual quotes from the coroner and not the editorialising from the Mail, Telegraph, Indy et al.

Good night and good luck.

Except somebody is dead and the coroner has reported a concerning culture and asked for an enquiry with the dofe so it’s clearly more than friends asking for space.

@TrumptonsFireEngine

You are all informed. Many people who attempt/succeed in suicide do not have mental health issues.

As PP says, suicide IS a mental health issue. Just because they were not showing symptoms of MH problems before doesn't mean that they didn't have any, just like people can die of a heart attack suddenly with no warning. Killing yourself is not the act of a healthy mind.

If the concerning culture is friends sometimes falling out, which is ALL the Daily Fail has to report, then there will be absolutely nothing they can do about it. It's tragic that someone so young died. Rather than worry about whether our kids will come up against situations where they lose friends, which will definitely happen, we should be teaching them how to act appropriately so hopefully they don't all leave at once, and teaching them how to be resilient when they do feel lonely or left out. And absolutely we should NOT be teaching them that they need to stay friends with someone when their behaviour does not meet standards they consider acceptable.

Do you think the conclusions of the investigator weren't valid?

Except you don’t know what the behaviours were, I suspect the coroner knows a lot more.

I really hope whatever happened was worth it to the supposed friends as they’re going to have to live with the death of a friend as a result of their behaviour for the rest of their lives.

I think we have lived in a culture for a very long time where women have been encouraged to keep quiet about bad behaviour in case it affects a young man's future. I think that there's a huge sense of entitlement, especially when it comes to young men from privileged backgrounds predicted to have high flying careers, that others should clear their paths and they should not have to face consequences of their actions. In this case, all I can see is a young man who made someone uncomfortable, faced consequences and was unable to face them. He is not entitled to have friends who stick by him despite bad behaviour.

Wrong

Myth: You have to have a mental illness to think about suicide. Fact: One in five people have thought about suicide at some point in their life. Not all people who die by suicide have a mental health condition. Though people living with a mental illness are generally more likely to feel suicidal, and make an attempt.

https://mentalhealth-uk.org › suicide
Suicide - Mental Health UK

So you agree with the conclusions of the investigator? You seem to be responding to someone else's question.

In this case, nothing terrible had happened to him. His whole family had not been killed in a tragic accident, he had not been sentenced to 30 years in prison, or been diagnosed with an illness which would kill him slowly and painfully. A few friends had distanced themselves. This was not a response to someone going through severe circumstances, but a young man who was either mentally unwell before this started or massively unready to cope with adult life.

No, I think the investigator was looking at the situation and placing the blame everywhere apart from where it actually lay.

I suppose we're all entitled to an opinion.

You don’t know the details. You don’t know exactly what happened which is causing concern from the coronor OR his history. How on earth can you state he wasn’t going through severe circumstances- you weren’t there and didn’t know him!

I've read the same article that was posted. There's really nothing beyond normal young adult experiences in there, and yet over-dramatic words like "cancelled" being thrown about.

Nice

Yeah, because the police and universities are famously brilliant when it comes to taking action over this sort of thing...

Have you seen Promising Young Woman?

Nonsense. Suicide can be a completely logical, rational decision, which someone might decide to take far in advance of a hypothetical tragic and irreversible eventuality, e.g., a diagnosis of dementia or terminal/advanced cancer. I know this personally.

It was considered quite a noble way to die in Ancient Rome, and was "offered" as an option to elite Romans who were sentenced to death. Best to die at your own hands, at a time and by means of your own choosing, so they thought. Seneca was a famous Roman who died this way.

The coroner himself used the ‘cancelled’ phraseology. One can hardly accuse him of drama.

I think @M0moka is seeing things pretty clearly. The young men who went after Mr Rogers were not just dissociating from a former friend; they were practising vigilante justice. One assaulted Mr Rogers physically. @M0moka and her DC have been through the ordeal of the DC’s rape, yet @M0moka has come through that experience convinced (as I am) that vigilante justice is always wrong and we need to work through the system insofar as possible. Now, her family had a good experience with that and many do not, so I would caveat this.

But it is remarkable and highly admirable that someone whose family has been through this is advocating for reason and restraint

Rosscameasdoody they were part of the same friendship group. That may be the sole reason why the girl felt uncomfortable. Recent break up with one person in the friendship group, stayed over with another. There may be no more to see than this. People are making assumptions based on nothing. Relationships within a friendship group are very capable of causing problems with the dynamics of the group. Certainly not always, but there's a lot of potential. And everyone always knows who's stayed over with who in these colleges - you can't keep it quiet.

I was sexually assaulted - and just assaulted - at university by three random guys, no idea who they were. I was pulled out of a taxi queue. I was held by my neck over a balcony at one point.

I kicked one in the balls and reported the incident straightaway to the police and university. Both said that even if they could find and identify the men (and tbh I was panicking so hard that I'm not sure I could have identified them anyway) it would be my word against theirs, and as I'd kicked one of them, they could claim I assaulted them. This was in the 90s admittedly but I'd be prepared to bet nothing has really improved since then. My friends went out looking for those blokes to give them a kicking but as I didn't know them - or even that they were at the uni, although it happened on the grounds - it was pointless really.

My point being that the prospect of being helped by the police or university, as a woman, if you're been sexually assaulted by a friend, is laughable. You can't even get help if it's a stranger. So it's hardly surprising if this young woman didn't think it worth bothering with the 'proper channels'.

We don't know what happened between the two young people, it's been reported that the girl wasn't happy with the experience and shared this with some trusted mutual friends, which is her and anyone's right and is completely normal. "Expressed discomfort" may well be massively minimising or not, it's an unfortunate turn of phrase as anyone will read into it what they want. I hope that it wasn't just a case of a jealous ex boyfriend challenging him in a threatening way and that the young man felt bullied by' the ex's possessiveness and alpha male behaviour. If it was something like a love triangle thing, rather than sexual assault and the young people involved were aware that Alexander Rogers was potentially vulnerable, unconfident or had other challenges, then it's actually unforgivable. But we don't know this, it may also have been sexual assault. It's terrible that his family has to live the this terrible loss and also with his name being tarnished. It's really a horrendous story.

That’s truly horrible, I’m sorry you experienced that.

I do think things have changed fundamentally since then. Unis are far more switched on to the issue - they all have consent programmes now, they also all have sexual violence and harassment services, and finally the police have improved their approach in the last 30 years. I’m not saying the police are in any way perfect - it can be very hit and miss - but they wouldn’t get away with that attitude now particularly with university services involved.