Uni suicide - tragedy but is this the only recourse for women that experience assault ?

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14060637/Oxford-University-student-20-killed-cancelled-female-friend-told-pals-felt-uncomfortable-sexual-encounter.hotlink

Superficially this is a tragedy and the sites is was the major factor for that led to it. However given the extremely low probability of criminal conviction of the university acting from a disciplinary point of view are women justified in using ostracism as the only till they have left for justice and as a warning to others that may consider assault a crime where there are in reality limited chance of consequence?

The woman concerned comes across as psychologically cruel and the coroner warns against 'cancel culture' but there seems more to this and perhaps the woman concerned was justified in talking to their friendship group at the very least as warning to other woemn?

Is this the social equivalent of a lunch mob with no proven guilt or the actions of a woman who knew there is typically no justice from authorities in such cases?

The whole thing is bizarre. I think to use her not reporting as evidence of anything is ridiculous when you look at what women go though to get convictions. I think it's also implied they're from the same friendship group so share friends- so not a calculating move to tell his friends. Also I had read one article where I thought it said D and E were female- every other article since is gender neutral. In his note he doesn't apologise to B. And finally the ostracisation lasted 2 days. To attribute blame of a suicide to other people is very unfair. I think the whole thing has been very clumsy to be honest.

I work at a RG university and have a lot experience working with sexual assault victims.

the university has a lot of support for students who experience sexual assault of any type, including ‘uncomfortable’ sexual experiences which maybe not be anything criminal but awkward, odd or regrettable. There are lots of threads on here about men doing/saying weird things in bed that are treated with humour for example, and these are young people just learning about sex and relationships.

we have sexual violence liaison officers who link in with ISVA and police and also a resolution team for cases where a restorative justice approach is more appropriate. Not sure how it compares with oxford but i would imagine they also have similar support in place.

The piece portrays the young man as a victim and that implies there was a a person who victimised him?

I think this is the crux of the issue. The "piece" paints its heroes and its villains. Whether that is accurate we can only guess at. Since it's the Daily Fail I am inclined to think that the situation is far more complex than they make it out to be.

But by all means, let's pre-emptively blame a woman for the actions of a man. It's not like we haven't seen that millions of times before. 🙄

This case has been discussed at length on another thread which you will probably find interesting op ... https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5205854-to-think-that-women-should-be-able-to-warn-other-women?reply=139707564

This thread needs to be deleted. A lot of harmful opinions on young people with no basis.

This case is very sad.

The sad thing is, that he even considered taking his own life. It was Jan, so they'd all known eachother at uni since the Sept, coming back after Christmas holidays. It would've been here say, she said he said. She wouldn't have been able to prove much. It probably would've blown over, for him. (Not for her obviously, she would've been traumatised, if she had actually been assaulted). But for him, it's a shame that he didn't realise that this would've been ok in the end. If I was a male, I'd just insist that there was no coercion, no pressure, she was a willing and happy participant at the time. This didn't need to ruin, end his life. Such a shame. This whole case doesn't sit well with me. I have 2 boys and wouldn't want them to be implied in any sexual wrongdoing.

It is a terrible tragedy for everyone concerned.
None of us knows what really happened and we should stop speculating.
And I wouldn’t trust a word I read in the Daily Mail who are the worst possible truth twisters.

I think Oxford University ( and all universities) need to take a look at their procedures if students feel that they can't go to pastoral support if they feel they have been assaulted. As others have said, she didn't go to her friends for support, or to the Student Union, or to pastoral support. She went to his friends, including her ex boyfriend. If there was a ' culture of ostracisation' as punishment, she possibly knew exactly what would happen. Again, and as the coroner said, Oxford University need to be looking into this culture too. They have failed all the students involved. Not just Alexander but the others who presumably worked hard to get into Oxford and got caught up in this behaviour will now have to live with their consciences every time they have to think about University.

The irony of reading the article and the outcome and then commenting on a thread with pure speculation making harmful comments about people with no basis.

It’s similarly reported in all newspapers tbf.

People like Alexander who commit suicide are suffering from mental ill health and not behaving rationally, so it’s pointless trying to rationalise the situation and even more inappropriate to try to apportion blame on anyone.

This is all speculation - we will never know exactly what happened between the two students.

The Coroner has judged that the 'cancel culture' at the college (and as a wider issue in Higher Education) was responsible for Alexander's suicide - the fact that he was ostracised by his social group, it seems in quite an organised and deliberate way, with his two former friends giving a two week period in which he would be ignored.

His social circle didn't have to react in this way. They could have encouraged the female student to report the incident, if it warranted reporting. If it was more along the lines that she regretted having sex after the fact, they could have supported her without shunning Alexander.

The blame here is collective rather than lying with any one individual.

You forgot lynch mob not lunch mob although I like that one 😉

It does seem though that in his own suicide note he acknowledged wrongdoing.
The woman spoke to others in her social circle about her lived experience. She can't be held responsible for the outcome.

The poor boy died. There's no evidence he did anything wrong and I think the speculation is unpleasant.

The young man admitted he did something ‘unintentional but unforgiveable’ - his own words. In these days of men having to address their own toxic behaviours, could this have been a case of two of his mates having a chat and pulling him up for it rather than just slapping him on the back and saying ‘it happens to the best of us mate’? The ex-boyfriend becoming physical sounds again like male anger and a bit of posturing for the sake of his ex-girlfriend.

In this story there is a male and female victim. But the inference is that this was some sort of kangaroo court or even a malicious accusation - it’s bubbling under the reporting of a very tragic story.

And I’m mindful of that tragic case at Aberdeen Uni where no one supported that young girl when her boyfriend was being abusive and ‘rough’ and she ended up committing suicide. Emily’s Test is now being rolled out at Unis to make people aware of what to do if they think someone is being abused - and how students and staff can be more protective of students who may need to report abusive behaviour.

But a young man has lost his life and the parties involved will be dealing with that for the rest of their lives. Suicide is never straightforward and one should never attribute a single cause to why someone takes their own life. The Samaritans always drive this fact home.

I have a son this young man’s age and a daughter about to go off to Uni. I can put myself in the shoes of both sets of parents and my heart goes out to them.

His social circle didn't have to react in this way. They could have encouraged the female student to report the incident, if it warranted reporting. If it was more along the lines that she regretted having sex after the fact, they could have supported her without shunning Alexander.

Yes, i think the ex boyfriend was looking for revenge so got his friends to ‘cancel’ Alexander. Being boycotted - especially by those who are considered friends - is a really unpleasant experience, especially in the relatively small community of a university.
Anyway, the girl and her ex have certainly got revenge. I wonder how they feel about it.

Young people of 20 are not sufficiently equipped to dispense judgement and punishment. Arrogant little shits bypassing the law is not how to deal with difficulties. Did they even approach the Dean with their issue?

If they weren't so posh, they'd have been burning bins in the streets.

So he did something during sex that she wasn’t comfortable with, maybe it wasn’t enough to make a formal complaint or maybe she didn’t want it to go that far. So she confides and asks his mates to tell him that it’s not acceptable. In all fairness to them, they do. We are asking men all the time to hold other men accountable for their actions and these men have a word with him. He then commits suicide. I do not think anyone can be held accountable for his death bar him.

The young man admitted he did something ‘unintentional but unforgiveable’ -
But no one knows what that was, presumably because the girl didn't tell the inquest. He could have gone too far or engaged in rough sex but he could also have felt it was unforgiveable because all his peers were telling him it was unforgiveable. It could have been assault or it could have been sleeping with his mates ex girlfriend. Universities have extensive pastoral support. It sounds like something that could have been sorted out through college procedures. The inquest sounds pretty extensive and didn't blame lack of college procedures. The coroner is writing a letter of concern to the DoE about cancel culture and bullying. And the coroner is the one who has heard all the available evidence.

This.

It didn’t read to me like there are villains in this story. Girl and boy have sex, girl feels pressured/embarrassed/coerced/regretful/taken advantage of (we don’t know what uncomfortable means here). She tells her friends about it.

Friends interpret that boy crossed the line and ask for some distance for a couple of weeks - perfectly reasonable response while you figure out how you feel about your friend’s actions. Person closest to girl takes it a step further with boy (her ex, who may also just be angry his friend slept with his ex).

Boy very sadly is unable to cope with the scenario and commits suicide.

There were other options for boy, his life wasn’t over, it would’ve blown over certainly in years if not in months and weeks (rightly or wrongly).

The girl talking to her friends about how she feels has not caused this, their mutual friends reacting to this in what looks to be a reasonable way has not caused this. The boy’s poor mental health and the lack of support for male mental health in society is probably what caused it.

The thought that’s been rattling around my head after reading about this case - what’s the way back for someone who does something “unintentional but unforgivable”? Is there one? Should there be one? How do we/should we be moving beyond “cancel culture” into conversations about what, if any, remediation allows someone back into the fold?

...and they would have known full well that their ostracism had the potential to drive him to the depths.

This. The woman is entitled to tell whoever she wants about her experience and his friends are entitled to decide he isn’t someone they want to associate with. He wasn’t owed unconditional friendship. It’s a tragedy he chose to end his life but there is no blame to be apportioned here. Suicide is never anyone else’s fault.

Fine, tell him it's unacceptable and tell him to apologise. Tell the girl to go to pastoral support. They socially ostracised him and got everyone to ignore him for 2 weeks. And this seemed to be a fairly common practice according to the coroner. For it to have been a culture, it must have happened fairly regularly. Alexander killed himself but how many others have had their experience ruined, been bullied far away from home, left their courses, failed their courses because of this behaviour. And the bullies get away with it and behave in the same entitled bullying way throughout their lives. They will have to live with their behaviour this time.