Uni suicide - tragedy but is this the only recourse for women that experience assault ?

[mids2019]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14060637/Oxford-University-student-20-killed-cancelled-female-friend-told-pals-felt-uncomfortable-sexual-encounter.hotlink

Superficially this is a tragedy and the sites is was the major factor for that led to it. However given the extremely low probability of criminal conviction of the university acting from a disciplinary point of view are women justified in using ostracism as the only till they have left for justice and as a warning to others that may consider assault a crime where there are in reality limited chance of consequence?

The woman concerned comes across as psychologically cruel and the coroner warns against 'cancel culture' but there seems more to this and perhaps the woman concerned was justified in talking to their friendship group at the very least as warning to other woemn?

Is this the social equivalent of a lunch mob with no proven guilt or the actions of a woman who knew there is typically no justice from authorities in such cases?

Whether or not this was the catalyst, behaving in a way that shames and bullies a person is a terrible thing to do when there are so many other ways to deal with this kind of situation

Particularly if the person in question has shown signs of having fragile mental health, which you would assume friends would have been aware of.

That’s incorrect.

His friends C and E spoke to him on 14th. He wrote his notes to friends and family after that, not sure if that was 14th or 15th. Someone at the college reported him missing on 15th, he was found on the afternoon of the 15th.

Oh. I understood from a student there on the ground that no-one noticed for one or two days until his tutor raised the alarm because he was missing from labs. That must have been Chinese whispers in that case unless the time period in question was the 14th to the 15th. But I would consider that still too long not to notice someone in evident distress missing.

A woman who feels uncomfortable about a sexual encounter is perfectly entitled to talk to whomever she wishes about it. She is not to blame for what other people have done after that.

Bear in mind that we will likely never know why she was uncomfortable. Perhaps she was very inexperienced and wasn't prepared for any emotional aftermath of normal sex. Perhaps it was rape or sexual assault but she wasn't ready to label it as that.

Personally, I think lots of the reporting on this has gone across as "evil woman turned friends against innocent man", which is straight up misogyny imo.

Did she try to discuss with him, what she was 'uncomfortable' about?

I find it a sad and odd case. My dc has been raped and the case is going to court.

We don’t know what happened in this case.Feeling uncomfortable isn’t by definition assault or rape. Regret can be uncomfortable. It’s up to the person involved to tell who they want to tell and to take it further.My dc would have been mortified to have had their case talked about around a college but everybody is different. However it is not down to anybody else to wade in and act as the police prosecutor and from the sound of it bullies. It just isn’t. Any real friend would have kept it private and guided the uncomfortable friend towards the right services .

To anybody reading this who do suffer an assault the police, CPS and other services in the immediate aftermath were fantastic in our case. Don’t be put off from accessing the right support.

But there isn’t any indication that no one saw him on the 14.th after the conversation with C and E, is there?

He was reported missing to police on 15 January by a concerned peer, and his body was recovered by fire and police crews that afternoon.

(from the Independent)

From the DM, it seems that E found the note on the 15th and it also seems that someone else saw him go off the bridge on the 15th. I think his body was recovered in the afternoon so not at night.

In any event, I really don’t think 24 hours, (or possibly less), is that long for a 20 year old to be alone or not seen by anyone. Students will be studying, hanging out with different friends, off at societies, out for coffee. It’s not a long enough period for anyone to say “hmm, haven’t seen X for ages” unless X didn’t show up to an appointment or something.

I think one thing that I take from this is that there are some that think that there should be done sort of leniency to young men at university that drunkenly cross lines....all part of university life for young people away from home perhaps for the first time. I think this is wrong and I wonder if this young man crossed a boundary and hugely regretted it (possible with a lot of alcohol involved).

Maybe in 2024 at least from a peer perspective assault is viewed in a different light to university 30 years ago (anatomy of a scandal). Is this not a good thing?

Any real friend would have kept it private and guided the uncomfortable friend towards the right services .

Arguably, a real friend might call out bad behaviour against their mate by another buddy, no?

There are often campaigns telling men to speak up if their mate is catcalling and making women uncomfortable, right? This feels to me similar to what those guys were doing.

And @M0moka i am so sorry that your DC was raped,

I don't think leniency necessarily. I don't think for a minute that Brock Turner should have got away with it for example. But I do think there needs to be an awareness, and a clear conversation with young men before they start social drinking, particularly away from home, that just as excess alcohol makes girls vulnerable, it also does the same for boys, and they can easily end up crossing lines that they wouldn't have crossed sober, because their judgement is impaired. That they need to be aware, even if it makes them uncomfortable, that impaired judgement could well lead to them committing sexual assault.

You're getting your timeline from a different source but yes in the Oxford college context there was evidently a gap which was miserably long.

Calling out is different to excluding somebody from social circles without due process or a fair hearing.
A culture where students rush to judgment without knowledge of all the facts,shun those accused, and 'pile on' isn’t helpful.

Sheila why is this so personal to you? If you really are just passing judgment from the press reporting then it's not the case that one can infer anything either way about what the situation actually was.

I can’t believe this. He’s dead. No one knows what happened. Why on earth a girl had sex and then told the boy’s friends. It’s just not a normal approach.

Best to tell young men don’t have sex with any girls at all, in case they regret later and call you coercion.

In this particular case, it was two people (mutual friends?) who spoke to Alexander and said after that they were not going to speak to him for a while. He committed suicide around 24h later.

Before that, her ex had a fight with him.

Only 3-4 people were referred to by the coroner. It is not clear that this is any kind of pile on or rushing to judgement without knowledge of the facts. Indeed, given C and E went to speak directly to Alexander, they may have been seeking his view of what happened.

Honestly, the information as laid out by the coroner doesn’t really seem like a pile on.

No-one has to stay friends with someone who has assaulted one of their other friends in case they kill themselves! One of the friends said, "You messed up, I need space from you." That is more than a fair response to someone who has done something inappropriate that you disapprove of.

But that isn’t just what was being described. It sounds like a whole lot more. And there is no evidence or claim of assault.

It is bugging me that so many posters are judging the young woman for talking to her friends about a bad experience. It absolutely smacks of all the judgement of women eg in court for not being the perfect victim, crying in the right places, telling friends, not telling them etc.

It is also bugging me that posters are not reading the articles closely and are mixing up facts and tabloid opinion.

I agree that men need some education about the dangers of alcohol and sex simply for their own protection and the reality that sexual assault is an extremely serious crime. Maybe the young man involved had reflected in some occurrence during the sexual encounter that had become widely known and couldn't see a way out? An action unintentional through drink but unforgivable?

Not judging anybody for taking to friends. Judging friends said friends though for wading in and appointing themselves judge and jury.

There is no evidence of assault and dangers/educating re alcohol can go both ways.

Saying that you don't want to be friends with someone or you need space from them is NOT appointing yourself judge or jury. It's a normal part of adolescent life that when you make a mistake sometimes you will lose friends.

Obviously the coroner was reporting on a death and the young man was not on trial so maybe he chose his words judicously? Instead of focusing on ostracism maybe the coroner maybe should have reflected that poor sexual behaviour will elicit a response from a community no matter where it is?

If the men involved had no reason to doubt what the young woman in question said then out of a sense of chivalry a group of men acted in a way they felt right? Could it be the young men knew that in such cases authorities acting was rare and took justice into their own hands?

I don't feel we need to be in a position where young women remain silent due to unforseen consequences for men.