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DC kept in a separate group from the rest of the reception class?

212 replies

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 13:46

DS has just turned 4 and started reception last week. He has speech delay which we’re working on, we’ve just started paying for private sessions after having little to no progress through NHS SALT. Other than the speech delay, behaviourally the only ‘issue’ I would say he has is he won’t sit still for long periods unless it’s to do something he’s truly engaged with. He doesn’t throw tantrums at all, has been toilet trained for over a year, has never been violent and sleeps through the night. The speech delay, in my opinion, is the primary concern but as I say, it doesn’t affect his overall behaviour.

He has a ‘My Support Plan’ at school and I had a meeting with the SENCO lead this week to discuss this. She explained that he is in a smaller intervention group most of the time because she believes he would ‘become overwhelmed’ if he were in the main classroom. I didn’t challenge it at the time stupidly because she had thrown a lot of information my way and I was trying to take it all in but in hindsight, I don’t really understand how or why she has come to this conclusion. He was in a private nursery full time for 2 years before starting school with a whole range of children and never became ‘overwhelmed’. As I say, he has never thrown a tantrum and he very rarely even cries, he’s one of the most laid back children I have met and just tends to get on with things.

I’m going to request he spends more time with the main class but I want to make sure I am right in doing so. I understand why the intervention group may help him because it means more 1:1 I believe which could help his speech and overall development but I also think there could be some benefit from spending time with the other children who do talk and who do behave in a more standard way. I’m going to sound bloody awful here but I’m concerned that in being placed almost solely with the SEN children who also don’t talk and who, from what I’ve seen when I collect him because he is in a separate classroom with the other SEN children, seem to have quite severe SEN- still in nappies for example, don’t respond to their names, stim a lot etc, this may actually hinder his development. I think if he spends more time around NT children, he may begin to model his behaviour on theirs which is what started to happen at nursery before the summer break when we noticed he was saying more words and had more patience during activities.

I truly don’t wish to cause any offence so I will have to word it in a way that doesn’t sound terrible. If DS does have SEN, he would be ‘higher functioning’ imo because the only challenging behaviour we really have from him is, as I say, times when he wants to run around rather than sit and pay attention to something. I know the SENCO lead is the expert and I am just his parent so I wanted to double check I am right in requesting this for him? He is also kept separate from the main school at playtime and plays in a smaller enclosed space with the SEN children so he has very little interaction with the wider group which I just don’t personally agree with. He happily played alongside the other children at nursery and was never ‘overwhelmed’ at all.

OP posts:
Sometimesnot · 20/09/2024 13:57

I’m a salt. The thing that stands out to me here is the attention difficulties. If he’s not able to sit still except for things he is very motivated for then is he ready to access large group phonics, maths or even story time. By ‘overwhelemed’ does the senco mean not able to cope with the demand of having to sit still and listen in a larger group? Hopefully a smaller group will be working on getting him ready to learn through whole class teaching. At nursery whole group teaching was likely to be very short or optional or possibly didn’t even happen.

Certainly check he’s with the rest of the class for some of the day so that he’s getting good language and play modelling from them but I wouldn’t push for him to be in there full time until he’s ready to access it full time and ready to attend to and therefore learn from whole class teaching.

If you are thinking it’s just a speech delay but school are maybe thinking it might be more it would be worth seeing if he could have an ed psych or specialist teacher assessment. This would identify both strengths and needs. Sometimes (but certainly not always!) not making progress with a speech delay can be an indication that there’s something wider going on.

nutrosti · 20/09/2024 14:01

op can you really not see this is 100% in your son’s interests?

nutrosti · 20/09/2024 14:05

why did he only start last week?

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Octavia64 · 20/09/2024 14:06

SEN stands for special educational needs.

If your son has a speech delay and is in a support plan then he has Special educational needs.

He therefore is a SEN child.

I don't know whether in the main class or in a nurture group is best for him but I just wanted to clarify that.

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:08

nutrosti · 20/09/2024 14:05

why did he only start last week?

Reception start a week after the rest of the school.

OP posts:
Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:11

Octavia64 · 20/09/2024 14:06

SEN stands for special educational needs.

If your son has a speech delay and is in a support plan then he has Special educational needs.

He therefore is a SEN child.

I don't know whether in the main class or in a nurture group is best for him but I just wanted to clarify that.

Sorry, I’m really new to the terminology and trying not to trip over myself in a bid not to cause offence.

What I mean is the other children in the group seem to have quite severe SEN and I believe DS does not.

The intervention will be beneficial for him and I am not requesting he is removed entirely from this group but I would like him to also spend more time with the wider class because I believe it could benefit his speech delay.

OP posts:
nutrosti · 20/09/2024 14:12

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:08

Reception start a week after the rest of the school.

so i’d give it more than a week before raising this

but for the time being trust that if it’s not appropriate for him to be in smaller group, then he will be moved. It would be in his and the school’s interests

StEthelburgaRose · 20/09/2024 14:16

It would be easier for the school to have him in class, so I don't think they'd take him out without good reason. Good idea to ask them about it though

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:17

Sometimesnot · 20/09/2024 13:57

I’m a salt. The thing that stands out to me here is the attention difficulties. If he’s not able to sit still except for things he is very motivated for then is he ready to access large group phonics, maths or even story time. By ‘overwhelemed’ does the senco mean not able to cope with the demand of having to sit still and listen in a larger group? Hopefully a smaller group will be working on getting him ready to learn through whole class teaching. At nursery whole group teaching was likely to be very short or optional or possibly didn’t even happen.

Certainly check he’s with the rest of the class for some of the day so that he’s getting good language and play modelling from them but I wouldn’t push for him to be in there full time until he’s ready to access it full time and ready to attend to and therefore learn from whole class teaching.

If you are thinking it’s just a speech delay but school are maybe thinking it might be more it would be worth seeing if he could have an ed psych or specialist teacher assessment. This would identify both strengths and needs. Sometimes (but certainly not always!) not making progress with a speech delay can be an indication that there’s something wider going on.

Thank you for your advice! She is having an ed psych evaluate him within the next few weeks. I won’t be pushing for any formal diagnosis unless I think it would be of benefit to him and his life.

I understand he wouldn’t sit still for longer group sessions so do see the benefit
of the smaller intervention group to get him more used to sitting still for long periods of time. I just don’t want him to solely be with SEN children because, as I say at risk of sounding awful, they seem to have severe SEN and I think he could benefit hugely from time with NT children both for his speech and behaviour modelling.

OP posts:
nutrosti · 20/09/2024 14:18

She is having an ed psych evaluate him within the next few weeks. I won’t be pushing for any formal diagnosis unless I think it would be of benefit to him and his life

any decent professional won’t be swayed by what you want or don’t want OP

this school sounds really proactive

FunLurker · 20/09/2024 14:20

You say he played along side other children in nursery, does he not play with them. They might just be trying to build his confidence as having a speech delay is quiet major. I agree he needs to spend time with other kids but only been a week, let them get to know him.

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:20

nutrosti · 20/09/2024 14:18

She is having an ed psych evaluate him within the next few weeks. I won’t be pushing for any formal diagnosis unless I think it would be of benefit to him and his life

any decent professional won’t be swayed by what you want or don’t want OP

this school sounds really proactive

I have been told he can receive all the help required without a formal diagnosis so it isn’t necessary to ever have one.

They are proactive and I’m grateful. The intervention group will be beneficial for him and I have absolutely no problem with him being in this group, I just also think he could benefit from more time with the wider class too.

OP posts:
Shinyandnew1 · 20/09/2024 14:21

If the SENCo is getting the EP to available him in the next few weeks, I would imagine there is more going on than a speech delay.

If DS does have SEN, he would be ‘higher functioning’ imo because the only challenging behaviour we really have from him is, as I say, times when he wants to run around rather than sit and pay attention to something

Running around rather than engaging does not make you ‘high functioning’.

What are his targets on the My Support Plan that they have in place?

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:22

FunLurker · 20/09/2024 14:20

You say he played along side other children in nursery, does he not play with them. They might just be trying to build his confidence as having a speech delay is quiet major. I agree he needs to spend time with other kids but only been a week, let them get to know him.

I guess I have just been thrown because he always played with the wider group at nursery and was never separated, I now feel as though he is being treated as though he is completely different and a separate entity from the rest of the class- does that make sense? I’m possibly just being sensitive because I know him and know his capabilities and don’t believe he has severe SEN like the other children in the intervention group.

OP posts:
maudelovesharold · 20/09/2024 14:23

If the op doesn’t think that this is in her son’s best interests, she is entitled to query it and have a second opinion. I have no idea why people have this ‘they’re the experts, they know best’ mentality, when doubts are raised by the actual parents, who have had experience of their child’s reactions and behaviour in all sorts of different settings.

The op’s ds is just 4. and the way most 4 year olds learn what’s expected of them in a formal school environment is by being in that environment and being taught. Many reception children, especially those young in the year, will have difficulty with concentration for long periods. More children than not would end up in intervention groups if that were the only criterion. Speech and language development will be encouraged by mixing with peers who are able to express themselves clearly and will be hindered if he is only able to mix with non-verbal children. You need to be clear that the only special need your son has is to do with his speech and language, which of course needs to be addressed, and that he has no other behavioural issues which would justify him being separated from his peers for the whole day. Fidgeting and lack of concentration doesn’t cut it as a special need for an only just 4 year old ffs! Take it further if you need to, op.

UnbeatenMum · 20/09/2024 14:25

There's a lot more sitting still on the carpet than you might expect in Reception. Did he start out with his class and they found he wasn't managing? Can you ask them a bit more about that?

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:26

Shinyandnew1 · 20/09/2024 14:21

If the SENCo is getting the EP to available him in the next few weeks, I would imagine there is more going on than a speech delay.

If DS does have SEN, he would be ‘higher functioning’ imo because the only challenging behaviour we really have from him is, as I say, times when he wants to run around rather than sit and pay attention to something

Running around rather than engaging does not make you ‘high functioning’.

What are his targets on the My Support Plan that they have in place?

Primarily to do with speech so, for example, to ask for help rather than pulling adults by the arm. We are starting private SALT next week so are hopeful this will help him and he will start to communicate his needs verbally.

OP posts:
Lougle · 20/09/2024 14:27

@maudelovesharold you have no idea that S&L is the only SEN here. To be honest, if a school is willing to put a child in an intervention group (expensive) and get Ed Psych time so early in the year, you can bet your bottom dollar that they think there's more going on.

@Whattodow just gently challenging your assumptions - if spending time with 'typical' children and grown ups would be enough to sort the speech delay, then your DS wouldn't have one. He spends probably 40-50 hours per week, at least, hearing 'normal speech'.

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:27

maudelovesharold · 20/09/2024 14:23

If the op doesn’t think that this is in her son’s best interests, she is entitled to query it and have a second opinion. I have no idea why people have this ‘they’re the experts, they know best’ mentality, when doubts are raised by the actual parents, who have had experience of their child’s reactions and behaviour in all sorts of different settings.

The op’s ds is just 4. and the way most 4 year olds learn what’s expected of them in a formal school environment is by being in that environment and being taught. Many reception children, especially those young in the year, will have difficulty with concentration for long periods. More children than not would end up in intervention groups if that were the only criterion. Speech and language development will be encouraged by mixing with peers who are able to express themselves clearly and will be hindered if he is only able to mix with non-verbal children. You need to be clear that the only special need your son has is to do with his speech and language, which of course needs to be addressed, and that he has no other behavioural issues which would justify him being separated from his peers for the whole day. Fidgeting and lack of concentration doesn’t cut it as a special need for an only just 4 year old ffs! Take it further if you need to, op.

Thank you. I didn’t really think reception was about sitting still for long periods anyway really! I figured it was perhaps a slightly more advanced extension of nursery with lots of learning through play which DS has always responded well to.

As I say, I have no qualms about him being in the intervention group for some of the time but do think it would help his speech not to be with other non-verbal children most of the time.

OP posts:
nutrosti · 20/09/2024 14:31

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:20

I have been told he can receive all the help required without a formal diagnosis so it isn’t necessary to ever have one.

They are proactive and I’m grateful. The intervention group will be beneficial for him and I have absolutely no problem with him being in this group, I just also think he could benefit from more time with the wider class too.

a formal diagnosis of appropriate will make yours AND his… so much easier if support is required op

there is no stigma

Sometimesnot · 20/09/2024 14:31

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:26

Primarily to do with speech so, for example, to ask for help rather than pulling adults by the arm. We are starting private SALT next week so are hopeful this will help him and he will start to communicate his needs verbally.

Does he point or use other geatures? Pulling an adult by the arm rather than using a gesture may be a sign it’s more than just a speech delay going on.

purpleme12 · 20/09/2024 14:31

OP if I were you I'd just request to have a chat with the senco/teacher, whoever is the right person, to clarify how much time he's in or out of the sen/non sen bit so you've got more of an idea and ask them why they've come to that conclusion.
There's nothing wrong with doing this.
Then you've got more information that you do now and you can take it from there.
And you can see if yours and their ideas line up and why

nutrosti · 20/09/2024 14:31

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:20

I have been told he can receive all the help required without a formal diagnosis so it isn’t necessary to ever have one.

They are proactive and I’m grateful. The intervention group will be beneficial for him and I have absolutely no problem with him being in this group, I just also think he could benefit from more time with the wider class too.

you could ask the teacher that question… how much time with rest of class?

Tittibits · 20/09/2024 14:32

My son was a really young four year old when he started and couldn’t sit still for periods of time. Turns out he had ADHD.

He’s just started as a secondary school teacher.

nutrosti · 20/09/2024 14:33

Whattodow · 20/09/2024 14:22

I guess I have just been thrown because he always played with the wider group at nursery and was never separated, I now feel as though he is being treated as though he is completely different and a separate entity from the rest of the class- does that make sense? I’m possibly just being sensitive because I know him and know his capabilities and don’t believe he has severe SEN like the other children in the intervention group.

did you nursery have a separate room for children with SEN? were you aware of any child being separated on account of their SEN at nursery?