DC kept in a separate group from the rest of the reception class?

[Whattodow]

DS has just turned 4 and started reception last week. He has speech delay which we’re working on, we’ve just started paying for private sessions after having little to no progress through NHS SALT. Other than the speech delay, behaviourally the only ‘issue’ I would say he has is he won’t sit still for long periods unless it’s to do something he’s truly engaged with. He doesn’t throw tantrums at all, has been toilet trained for over a year, has never been violent and sleeps through the night. The speech delay, in my opinion, is the primary concern but as I say, it doesn’t affect his overall behaviour.

He has a ‘My Support Plan’ at school and I had a meeting with the SENCO lead this week to discuss this. She explained that he is in a smaller intervention group most of the time because she believes he would ‘become overwhelmed’ if he were in the main classroom. I didn’t challenge it at the time stupidly because she had thrown a lot of information my way and I was trying to take it all in but in hindsight, I don’t really understand how or why she has come to this conclusion. He was in a private nursery full time for 2 years before starting school with a whole range of children and never became ‘overwhelmed’. As I say, he has never thrown a tantrum and he very rarely even cries, he’s one of the most laid back children I have met and just tends to get on with things.

I’m going to request he spends more time with the main class but I want to make sure I am right in doing so. I understand why the intervention group may help him because it means more 1:1 I believe which could help his speech and overall development but I also think there could be some benefit from spending time with the other children who do talk and who do behave in a more standard way. I’m going to sound bloody awful here but I’m concerned that in being placed almost solely with the SEN children who also don’t talk and who, from what I’ve seen when I collect him because he is in a separate classroom with the other SEN children, seem to have quite severe SEN- still in nappies for example, don’t respond to their names, stim a lot etc, this may actually hinder his development. I think if he spends more time around NT children, he may begin to model his behaviour on theirs which is what started to happen at nursery before the summer break when we noticed he was saying more words and had more patience during activities.

I truly don’t wish to cause any offence so I will have to word it in a way that doesn’t sound terrible. If DS does have SEN, he would be ‘higher functioning’ imo because the only challenging behaviour we really have from him is, as I say, times when he wants to run around rather than sit and pay attention to something. I know the SENCO lead is the expert and I am just his parent so I wanted to double check I am right in requesting this for him? He is also kept separate from the main school at playtime and plays in a smaller enclosed space with the SEN children so he has very little interaction with the wider group which I just don’t personally agree with. He happily played alongside the other children at nursery and was never ‘overwhelmed’ at all.

I haven't read the entire thread, but if you end up needing an EHCP in order to get him the support he needs, then a formal diagnosis is a key step.

I agree with previous posters - the school sound very proactive - and they are the professionals. It's far more common to have a bit of a battle to get extra support at school, because many of them are stretched in terms of resources through no fault of their own.

The one thing that stood out about your post is your apologetic tone, particularly your description of you 'only being a parent' and not an expert. You really need to get over that. You are an expert! You are the expert of your own child. You know your child better than anyone else. You also shouldn't apologise for the fear of causing offence. You've said nothing offensive and it is perfectly normal that you want him surrounded by the right balance of children. You sound quite reasonable to me. You're wanting him to spend more time with the rest of the class, although are happy for him to spend time in a 1 to 1 setting. You just want to get a healthy balance. The school don't know your child, although they do have to make snapshot decisions, at least initially. The more information you can provide them with (and the more that they can provide you with), the better. Please don't feel afraid to raise your concerns or ask for clarification.

I can't understand why you are putting him through this. He's four. Let him have another year of getting on happily in a play setting instead of forcing him to behave like a child a year older with no SEN.

On an additional note, he was in his mainstream school from 2.5 as they had a 2 year room. He stayed there until 3 months before he moved to reception as he wasn't ready until then to join the nursery room

It didn't harm him in the long run, he made friends and from year 6 started walking the short distance to and from school like everyone else in his class, was working in the top groups , since the weather has warmed up he goes out to play football on the local field with friends ,something I never thought he'd do as he was a real flight risk when younger

Now you wouldn't know he has a dx if you didn't have a knowledge of autism as his autism doesn't affect other people. I really don't think he'd have come as far as he did without all the outside support and the support from his school though.

the school assumed DD was the same at home as she was at school too, and so it took a while for us all to realise the differences in behaviour and to all get on the same page.

@Beth216 Thats a very good point. We had a similar experience when DS started school. DS was also very different at school from the small private nursery where he'd been settled since babyhood and they were as used to him as we were! The school couldn't believe at first that no-one had noticed anything and thought we were all flakes. We all got there in the end and DS got the support he needed from all of us.

OP I hope you're OK. It's so hard to nagivate this. But in the end we all just want the best for our kids

What play settings want rising 4 year olds? My friend did this with her son (autistic, it turned out). He was so big, the other parents of the three year olds were horrified. He was having to repeat a year at nursery so he had done all the activities and he was bored and acting up which he had never done before. It lasted a couple of weeks then he started school, where he got the right support.

Oh come on, they might be days older than the September borns and younger corrected if they were prem. Our nursery would take Reception children back in school holidays. Children deferring is incredibly common in Scotland (as in, the majority of children born in the cut off month defer) and the children and nurseries there all manage.

My daughter works in a nursery and they don't allow this - I just checked with her. She says some will allow it, but not once they turn 5.

Yes they're private businesses, I'm sure some will and some won't.

Sorry. I’ve only read your initial post, but you are the expert on your child. If you want him playing alongside others in his class where he can form friendships, then tell school that. Young FS2 children can have speech problems but this should not be used as an excuse for him to be in a permanent intervention group.

You are right he shouldn't be separated all of the time, the whole idea of inclusive education is that everyone is included together!

And saying he "can't sit still for long periods" seems a ludicrous thing only a week into reception! I doubt he's the only one.

Why would you feel the need to 'challenge' people who work in this profession and are trained and experienced to best support children. Whatever they are doing with your son is in his best interest. They will have seen plenty of children like him before and know what they're doing.

Would you prefer that they ignore his SEN and do nothing??

Have the teachers heard him speak? You say he has a wide vocabulary but if he is only using it with you and not at school, that could be exactly the same as the other children who you have said are “non-verbal”. Their needs may not be as different to your DS’s as you think.

However, I do agree with the PP who said you are right to question it. You are the parent and have a right to understand the teacher’s decisions. I would just say go in with an open mind; they also have his best interests at heart.

How is your son doing academically when compared against his peers?

My son was placed in a SEN Hub throughout his primary school years within a mainstream school because he clearly has learning difficulties. He's 11 with a reading age of 4.His comprehension is fine, he asks a ton of questions, but he struggles to retain information. He was speech delayed too. He is not autistic.

He has never had a friend...he couldn't keep up with the conversations and had no-one that had much in common with him.
He got 121 support to help him understand the world around him and to incorporate SALT and OT exercises into everyday life.

Your school sounds awesome. Please tactfully raise your concerns with the Senco. Its better that you address this; it'll put your mind at rest and show the school that you will fight for your child. If you don't, your resentment of this decision will just grow, until you are always battling the school. But don't go in too hard. Ask them to explain the reasoning behind placing him in the SEN hub. ask How they are ensuring he is being given time to socially engage with his peers? Are they doing any social engineering to ensure he is afforded an opportunity to make friends. Raise it as a concern around making friends, not SALT.

But also remember they are there to teach 30 kids. He may be in the SEN hub because the teacher can't give him the attention he needs without neglecting the rest of the class. your son will be fine in the hub, they'll teach him to his ability and push him as necessary.

From reading your descriptions of your son, there is more going on than just SALT. Please trust the process the SENCO is going through here.

I am an ed psych

Unless they had been referred to the Early Years EP team, or fallen through the net and shown up in school with something like cerebral palsy or Downs with no individual plan, I would not usually work with a child in their first term in Reception in any kind of formal way, except to observe and give advice (in written format). I would usually just consult (have a detailed conversation) in the first few weeks.

The first and main skill children need to develop in order to be able to manage in mainstream is the ability to pay attention to something they have not chosen themselves, and at a time they have not chosen. The most common reception referrals I get are for children who don't yet have this skill - either because they have limited speech and language, limited attention modulation, or limited social communication, or because their overall development is progressing more slowly. Because of this we often focus on this skill in reception intervention planning. We do this by setting up a workspace filled with activities the child likes, enjoys, and would often choose. Then when the child is calm and well regulated we bring them to the workspace saying "work time" and show them the nice activity that is ready. The point isn't that it's tricky work or work that is extending their current skills at this point - it's about setting up a positive association between "work time" and enjoyable activities. The first "work" sessions might be just 2-5 mins 3 times a day. Very gradually you extend the time doing "work" and increase the challenge of the activities presented to make them more "work like" in terms of, tracing a letter, sharing a book, sorting compare bears etc

If I were referred a child like your DS this would be likely to be the only thing I would be asking them to focus on at this point in terms of outcomes, with a view to seeing how he is able to progress with directing his attention to activities he hasn't selected himself over time. I would give this at least a term, probably 1.5 terms. Obviously alongside this there would be separate SALT input etc.

I would need to know how he is able to respond to this kind of direction in order to better judge what levels of support and type of setting might best meet his needs into the future.

Having re-read the OP's post, she says that her DS is with the smaller intervention group "most" of the time. I think the question of exactly what the word "most" means in this context is key. It certainly doesn't sound like the DS should be kept separate from the non-SEN children at all times, eg if the children are getting some "free play" time when they can move freely at will between different toys and activities, it sounds like the OP's son could be included in that without causing disruption. But equally it sounds like the OP's DS would struggle to cope with some typical reception class activities so is better off in the smaller intervention group while those are taking place. I think a first step is for the OP to ask for more detail about how much time is spent in the SEN group and how much with non-SEN children, including which mainstream activities are considered not suitable for her DS. I think it's perfectly reasonable for the OP to seek clarification now that she's had more time to absorb the information.

I fully agree with you OP and understand what you mean.
Your son is in the best place and the school seems really good and supportive. I do think you're right and should ask if he will get time each day with the wider class, even if just for a little while when they're playing for eg.
The 1:1 support and focus is best for him for the majority of the time I'd say, but he does need opportunities to be around NT kids imo.

I can understand your child sitting with the other children who need more Support, I can’t understand why they’re completely separated. I wouldn’t like that if I’m honest and it is likely his friends will only be these other children as he won’t be mixing with the others whilst friendships are forming and behaviours will be copied for sure, I’ve been through it and it still happens now. They do need to learn the same way the other kids do, ie, listening to the teacher, instructions, sitting still etc and they can’t learn this if they’re not in the main class. Their Intervention groups will focus a lot on supporting them and will help massively. If it was me I would like more of a balance in your situation but I’ve never had any problems myself with the school as they’ve been brilliant.

Regarding the "non-verbal" description, I wouldn't take it too seriously if a teacher or medical professional refers to DC as non-verbal in terms of functionality (e.g. when considering how best to communicate with them for an assessment) - I've had lots of people (including sencos) refer to my selectively mute DC as non-verbal when they are very verbal at home and able to articulate their needs clearly in writing (when they were old enough, obviously!).

Professionals who are referring to the fact the child doesn't speak to them will often use 'non-verbal' as shorthand for 'doesn't speak in this context' as opposed to meaning 'can't understand language and isn't capable of using it', in my experience, so it may be that some of the other DC in DS's small group have also been described as non-verbal to you by the teacher when actually some may have selective mutism or similar issues, but are actually perfectly capable of understanding language and using it in selected contexts.

I'm a SEN specialist teacher. I prefer SEND students to be predominantly in the mainstream classroom whenever possible. Separating them for playtime seems barbaric. By all means your kid might need to be in an intervention classroom for Reading, Maths or English. But he should be in class for everything else.

Reading with him at home will help his literacy and any speech issues. Take it in turns to read.

It sounds like you're in denial about DS's needs.
He needs a formal diagnosis and you should be sorting that out.

I've seen so many mothers who cannot accept that their children have special educational needs and they try to shoehorn and wedge their kids into mainstream classes thinking that they will be fine - "This is fine. He'll be fine'".
He wont.
You're very lucky that the school is so supportive.
If you don't turn around and face up to what your child really needs - then he will sink further.

Video games and screen use are linked to speech delay. You can read all the research and advice. I'd turn all that off immediately to give him the best chance.

Why on earth wouldn’t you want him to have one? To understand himself and not see himself as falling or bad?