DC kept in a separate group from the rest of the reception class?

[Whattodow]

DS has just turned 4 and started reception last week. He has speech delay which we’re working on, we’ve just started paying for private sessions after having little to no progress through NHS SALT. Other than the speech delay, behaviourally the only ‘issue’ I would say he has is he won’t sit still for long periods unless it’s to do something he’s truly engaged with. He doesn’t throw tantrums at all, has been toilet trained for over a year, has never been violent and sleeps through the night. The speech delay, in my opinion, is the primary concern but as I say, it doesn’t affect his overall behaviour.

He has a ‘My Support Plan’ at school and I had a meeting with the SENCO lead this week to discuss this. She explained that he is in a smaller intervention group most of the time because she believes he would ‘become overwhelmed’ if he were in the main classroom. I didn’t challenge it at the time stupidly because she had thrown a lot of information my way and I was trying to take it all in but in hindsight, I don’t really understand how or why she has come to this conclusion. He was in a private nursery full time for 2 years before starting school with a whole range of children and never became ‘overwhelmed’. As I say, he has never thrown a tantrum and he very rarely even cries, he’s one of the most laid back children I have met and just tends to get on with things.

I’m going to request he spends more time with the main class but I want to make sure I am right in doing so. I understand why the intervention group may help him because it means more 1:1 I believe which could help his speech and overall development but I also think there could be some benefit from spending time with the other children who do talk and who do behave in a more standard way. I’m going to sound bloody awful here but I’m concerned that in being placed almost solely with the SEN children who also don’t talk and who, from what I’ve seen when I collect him because he is in a separate classroom with the other SEN children, seem to have quite severe SEN- still in nappies for example, don’t respond to their names, stim a lot etc, this may actually hinder his development. I think if he spends more time around NT children, he may begin to model his behaviour on theirs which is what started to happen at nursery before the summer break when we noticed he was saying more words and had more patience during activities.

I truly don’t wish to cause any offence so I will have to word it in a way that doesn’t sound terrible. If DS does have SEN, he would be ‘higher functioning’ imo because the only challenging behaviour we really have from him is, as I say, times when he wants to run around rather than sit and pay attention to something. I know the SENCO lead is the expert and I am just his parent so I wanted to double check I am right in requesting this for him? He is also kept separate from the main school at playtime and plays in a smaller enclosed space with the SEN children so he has very little interaction with the wider group which I just don’t personally agree with. He happily played alongside the other children at nursery and was never ‘overwhelmed’ at all.

This does not ring true for anything I have been told when dealing with my own child’s issues. Everything that deviates from standard, especially if it costs money, has to be justified.

if your child does end up with a diagnosis of some kind, it doesn’t mean anything is wrong. I have a diagnosis. My child has a diagnosis. both of us are happy, successful, and independent.

a diagnosis is simply a tool that gets your child the services he needs. It can also help him understand himself and how he relates to the world. It’s not anything to fear

This sounds a perfectly reasonable discussion to have

It sounds like the school are very on top of things. Nurseries miss things, particularly if the behaviour doesn’t involve disturbing other children or making extra work for the staff.

Leading you by the arm is one of the questions in the ADOS (from memory). It does sound like your DS has additional needs and that he is getting support in school

That would fall into the communication section too

OP hasn't mentioned anything from the social domain or any repetitive interests/ behaviours

And all 3 areas need to be problematic?

.

It’s done differently in our school. The SEN kids are taken separately for maths and phonics because they are not yet able to access the learning that the whole class is doing. It is also highly disruptive when you have 25 kids all sitting, wanting to learn and then one child crying/screaming/fidgeting/wandering off. It does make it difficult for the other children to access the learning. We also have separate focused interventions for things like messy play, attention bucket, turn taking and games that revolve around expanding their speech and vocabulary. But for open learning - all our kids mix with extra adults to support the children with additional needs.

I don’t believe in completely segregating them. I think I’d feel similarly to you and I say this as a mother of a child who attends a special education school while my other children are in mainstream.

I think I would raise your concerns - I always think it’s better to do so in writing. Because then there cannot be any confusion about what has been said or agreed and ideally get this written up into your child’s plan.

I think socially your child will be missing out if they are not able to mix with the rest of their class.

Lastly, I agree that you should follow up with a diagnosis. Whether or not right now you feel it is beneficial. A diagnosis is hard to come by and whilst you may not feel it’s beneficial now, you might kick yourself later and find yourself fighting with services to access help.

Why do you keep bringing up that they are still in nappies??

Hello: fellow Sen mum here. My son has speech delay. He started school only staying single words and learning how to say 3 word sentences and couldn't say his name.

He was kept in the main classroom but he didn't manage to sit on the carpet reliably for learning time till Easter but his teacher kept him in the room.

He had senco learning targets issued which included how to play with other children.

I am with you - by being in this group all of the time he is missing out on learning from his peers. One of the fundamentals my private salt told me is - model good language. My son comes home with new phrases all the time which he learns from his peers.

Things that helped my son get to the carpet : distraction toys. He always had Lego in front of him to fiddle with.

Can there be a halfway house? Some time in the small group for learning and socialisation in the main class?

He doesn’t need a diagnosis to get support, but he does need evidence of need and there seems to be plenty of that.

If there are SaLT and EP assessments taking place, they will be useful as evidence for requesting an EHCNA ( Education Health Care Needs Assessment, which may determine whether he will need even more support in school and provide funding via an Education Health and Care Plan, to support the school in ensuring he gets the support he needs to make progress in speech and in learning.

Since it’s so early in the school year, the school are being proactive in seeking support to ensure they do the best they can for your child.

I mean this as nice as possible.

What you want for your son and what your son needs will be completely different.

My son was completely non verbal last year and this year he is verbal. Very verbal. He is still not communicative but he does make his needs known verbally however his chosen method of communication is still hand leading. Speech apraxia doesn't just disappear. For many children with speech apraxia hand leading is the best and most comfortable method of communication.

Your child can't engage with tbe curriculum set out in the main class.

He might require intervention therapies like the curiosity approach and attention autism which can only be done in small groups.

Your sons school sound brilliant, they aren't segregating him to other him, they have done it as a carefully curated approach to meet him educationally in a learning style that he prefers. We should all be so lucky to get that for our SEN children.

It's fine to raise it with the SENCO now. Just tell them what you have said here and also keep an open mind and hear them out.

For the record my child is that has severe SEN and I still want him to mix with mainstream as much as he is able, because he does learn from his peers, and sometimes he listens to them more than he does his teachers. For the most part he's unable to engage in lessons sadly. I get your concerns. His speech and language are also progressing and one reason that is putting us off SEN schools (we have been turned down by most of them) is that it wouldn't entirely be to his benefit to be with kids who are like him (inwardly focused, difficulty regulating, easily triggered, aggressive when dysregulated).

Gently and with respect what you are describing are significant, or as you put it severe, sen.

It is better to get this level of support and an ehcp so that schools can afford to continue that support. The gap can widen every year as nt kids continue to develop at the expected speed and those already delayed at the outset potentially are still trying to bridge that initial gap let alone catch up and keep pace.

As others have said schools don’t have money to waste on specialist provision and EP assessments that aren’t absolutely necessary, let alone to do so proactively from day 1. It’s also likely that your impression of how nursery went and what the nursery have shared with the school about the actual level of need and development observed are very different.

Just because some children are in nappies doesn’t mean they’re “more severe”. They just have different issues that manifest. Some conditions come with delayed development of bowel or bladder control for example but they may be less delayed in other areas.

It is very doubtful that your child just prefers tugging sleeves than saying miss for example. He has a minimum of 2 years delay currently and often salt is about more than speaking as in choosing to speak and can indicate issues with broader cognitive processes that formation of language and syntax rely upon and could cause a widening gap with development over time.

if your salt really said he just can’t be bothered because someone else will do things for him or words to that effect I think you need to find a new one.

If the school want an ed psych evaluation, I would guess that his issues are suspected to be greater than what you think. And in the nicest possible way, you don't want your ds to spend a lot of time with the 'severe' SEN children, and it's very likely the parents of the 'NT' children don't want your ds in with them, potentially disrupting their learning.

Yet another mum who doesn’t want her ‘precious little darling’ around the ‘special’ kids.

I have an ASD 3 year old, (who has speech and does not stim btw) and if he had this sort of intervention in place for starting primary, I would be happy with it, as it would mean my child would be receiving extra attention and support. Of course, you’re in your right to ask questions, and they are professionals, so they should give you the appropriate reasoning for giving him this extra support. It should be an open dialogue between you and school.

But obviously you are currently in denial about your child’s SEN.

Also OP, I just wanted to add in.

My son got his autism diagnosis before school. He's already done a year of reception but because there were no interventions really in place for his first year he made no academic success.

They've kept him in the reception class this year but they can't do that next year.

Had my son had the interventions of a smaller class with a learning style that worked with him not against him, maybe we'd be less worried about his transition into year 2, as we fight an arduous EHCP process and the school continue to not meet need.

This first year is so important for interventions and fact finding about the child.

I think you are getting a hard time on here @Whattodow and I’d be feeling exactly as you are . Extra help is one thing and in most schools we’ve used that means the children are based in their form group but taken out for maths / English or whatever . It sounds here like your son is based in this SEN group and is getting very little time to make friends with the other reception children and in my opinion the social aspect of school is very important . I think you need a meeting with the SENCO and the reception teacher to agree a strategy , and by agree I mean you put your points across as well .

@Whattodow

I used to work in a school and I know EP assessments are like gold dust and take for ever to get. To get one lined up so early in the year means the school must have noticed something of significant concern or they have been alerted by the nursery's handover information.

Speech and language is not just about spoken words; it is also about understanding language.(Receptive language). If your child's receptive language is poor, anything being delivered in a whole class situation will just go over his head, which may be why he struggles to concentrate and pay attention. In any case, a teacher cannot teach properly and other children cannot learn effectively if another child is running around, being disruptive.

Playing alongside other children, rather than with them is another indication that things are not quite right. If his social skills are lacking it may be that he needs to be taught specific social skills which is usually done 1:1 or in a small group.

I know because two of my children had speech and language delay in their early years, and both had a Statement of Special Educational Needs (now replaced by EHC Plans). One of them was later diagnosed with ASD.

If a child has special educational needs, I believe the key to everything is early intervention. Grab everything you can get with both hands. By all means, have another chat with the class teacher or SENCO, to get a better understanding of what they are doing, but as others have said, this school sounds fantastic.

I don’t know if this helps you at all but I am the mum of an SEN child and an experienced mainstream teacher. When I realised that my daughter had SEN the first thing I did was get her an EHCP and start the process of getting her into an SEN school. She started y1 with only a handful of words and she has just started y2 with a full vocabulary. She is in a class of 8 - some are non verbal, some are in nappies! I absolutely guarantee you that small group intervention at an early age is key to stopping the gap between our children and others becoming too wide. What you are describing is that your son has special educational needs. His language won’t develop by being in a class of 30 children, what will probably happen will be he will get swallowed up and left to ‘play’ instead of doing the work. I have seen it more times than I can count. Please also consider that he may have a good teacher right now but at the drop of a hat that teacher could leave and be replaced with cover or an unqualified teacher. I would grab this opportunity with both hands.

Yeah it makes me laugh when parents say things like this. My (autistic, but high functioning) dd was in a unit attached to mainstream. There was another child in with her, who had moderate learning disabilities and was completely non verbal, in nappies, complete global developmental delay. He needed a special school placement, but was in the unit because there was no alternative, but he was definitely the most severe in terms of SEN. His mum made a big thing about him going into the mainstream classroom, because the autistic children would keep him back apparently .

As a formerly undiagnosed ‘high functioning’ autistic, please don’t think that having a diagnosis isn’t important. I think I probably could have avoided a significant portion of the 20 years of mental health issues had someone just been able to explain why I was how I was.

Any decent professional will certainly listen to the parent who may have knowledge and insight about the child that the school doesn't yet.

Of course they should listen to her.

I know you've had lots of responses here, and I've not read them all.

I teach a group like your child is in. I would be totally open to a discussion about how we could increase his time in mainstream, over time. Perhaps he could begin joining for 5 minutes of free flow time, increasing as he manages this. This may be in the best interests of your child, without causing detriment to peers. However, if your child, for example, enjoys swiping toys, has a tendency to hit due to lack of language, or requires significant adult attention, it may be he is not ready. If he cannot stop and tidy, it may be he is not ready. There's a lot of other reasons.

But definitely ask to talk to the school. Explain your concerns. Focus on your boy, not others. Remember that in the small group, he will be getting loads of adult interaction, probably from staff who really understand S&L needs, and this cannot be underestimated. But do also make it know that you would like to work together to support him spending more time in his mainstream class.

I’m a SALT too, I do definitely agree and I am all for mixing with the other children especially during less structured activities like playtime and snack/lunch as it is a good time for modelling of language and play activities and is good for all children involved.

It would be worth looking at his functional language and when he uses the words he has is it get what he needs or to repeat? I know you said he does a lot of hand leading, I have seen children who don’t use language as much cope better in smaller environments as they can get their needs met quicker and easier as their points might be missed. I would say just following the school and SENCO where you can if you feel they have his interests at heart as 9/10 they are usually the professionals with the experience and ability to best support children with any kind of need such as speech/language difficulties. But of course advocate for him too. Good luck to your little boy for his first year at primary school!

It sounds like your son has more significant needs than you want to admit to and at 4 years old you have no way of knowing yet if he will be high functioning or not. He's been there a week, leave things as they are until the Ed psyc has done an evaluation.

Being in nappies means nothing, my ds was diagnosed with autism at 2.4, we thought his needs would be significant

By the time he was 4 he was verbal and did have some communication skills , he didn't come out of nappies until he was almost 5 though

By end of year 1 things had clicked into place for him, he didn't need 1:1 , didn't need to be in any smaller support groups outside of his main class and by year 3 he no longer needed an iep even

He had an awful lot of intervention when younger though , especially from salt.

He's 11 now, still in ms school , very bright and eager to learn. Back when he was 3/4 I never would have dreamt that he would be doing so well. You never know how things will turn out, take all the support school are offering. There's plenty of time for him to start joining in with his class in the future

Hi OP, I think being in a separate group is fine for targeted activities and in situations where your son would currently be overwhelmed. What I would be questioning though is being separated at lunchtimes, break times and lessons like PE where he (and the other children with SEN) should mix with their peers if they’re able to do so.

Nursery is very different to school so I wouldn’t focus on that to be honest. It’s very early days so see how it goes. I know you have concerns about the other children with SEN but you may find that your son starts to talk more to help those children once he realises that he is able to do things that they may struggle with. That was definitely the case with my DD.

I seem to be going against the grain here but I'd be contacting the class teacher and Senco and just asking if they can increase his in class time. Just make it clear you're not sure if they've over accommodated his needs at the moment and say how he seemed to progress so well at nursery. Just word it that you're open to speaking to discuss further if they don't think it's a good idea. As long as you're polite there's no issue with asking.