DC kept in a separate group from the rest of the reception class?

[Whattodow]

DS has just turned 4 and started reception last week. He has speech delay which we’re working on, we’ve just started paying for private sessions after having little to no progress through NHS SALT. Other than the speech delay, behaviourally the only ‘issue’ I would say he has is he won’t sit still for long periods unless it’s to do something he’s truly engaged with. He doesn’t throw tantrums at all, has been toilet trained for over a year, has never been violent and sleeps through the night. The speech delay, in my opinion, is the primary concern but as I say, it doesn’t affect his overall behaviour.

He has a ‘My Support Plan’ at school and I had a meeting with the SENCO lead this week to discuss this. She explained that he is in a smaller intervention group most of the time because she believes he would ‘become overwhelmed’ if he were in the main classroom. I didn’t challenge it at the time stupidly because she had thrown a lot of information my way and I was trying to take it all in but in hindsight, I don’t really understand how or why she has come to this conclusion. He was in a private nursery full time for 2 years before starting school with a whole range of children and never became ‘overwhelmed’. As I say, he has never thrown a tantrum and he very rarely even cries, he’s one of the most laid back children I have met and just tends to get on with things.

I’m going to request he spends more time with the main class but I want to make sure I am right in doing so. I understand why the intervention group may help him because it means more 1:1 I believe which could help his speech and overall development but I also think there could be some benefit from spending time with the other children who do talk and who do behave in a more standard way. I’m going to sound bloody awful here but I’m concerned that in being placed almost solely with the SEN children who also don’t talk and who, from what I’ve seen when I collect him because he is in a separate classroom with the other SEN children, seem to have quite severe SEN- still in nappies for example, don’t respond to their names, stim a lot etc, this may actually hinder his development. I think if he spends more time around NT children, he may begin to model his behaviour on theirs which is what started to happen at nursery before the summer break when we noticed he was saying more words and had more patience during activities.

I truly don’t wish to cause any offence so I will have to word it in a way that doesn’t sound terrible. If DS does have SEN, he would be ‘higher functioning’ imo because the only challenging behaviour we really have from him is, as I say, times when he wants to run around rather than sit and pay attention to something. I know the SENCO lead is the expert and I am just his parent so I wanted to double check I am right in requesting this for him? He is also kept separate from the main school at playtime and plays in a smaller enclosed space with the SEN children so he has very little interaction with the wider group which I just don’t personally agree with. He happily played alongside the other children at nursery and was never ‘overwhelmed’ at all.

It’s clear how much you love your DS and it’s really hard to come to terms with the fact that your child (who is perfect to you) might have SEN. I think the nursery have vastly downplayed his difficulties to you though or were just happy to let him do his own thing as long as it didn’t become problematic.

To put it into context, my DS turned 3 last week and he’s pretty speech delayed and we haven’t ruled out a possibility of ASD. His preschool were flagging concerns at 18 months, in turn I contacted the HV and a private SALT. We managed to get inclusion funding at preschool for him so he has a smaller group to help him with things he struggles with like attention and listening, sharing etc. We paid for the SALT to visit him in the setting to give advice/targets to the nursery staff and the HV is also visiting every few months to check on progress. It was so difficult to come to terms with the fact my DS was different but looking back I’m so glad I swallowed my fear and just got all the help available and didn’t downplay any of his issues.

He’s been back at preschool after the summer for two weeks now and his key worker has told us how fantastic he’s doing with his speech now. He’s communicating his needs, speaking in 2-3 word sentences and is actively trying to join in and engage the other kids to play. He still needs help with his attention and listening in some areas but overall he’s progressed enormously and I think a lot of it is down to all the help very early on we’ve been able to access. I feel very fortunate our preschool was so on the ball with this and as others have said, your school sounds similar.

I suspect you’re finding all the replies overwhelming, and see them as negative. I think the key point you should focus on is the early intervention and support. What others are saying is correct, it’s a positive thing he’s in the system already, and any problems are being picked up on now, rather than later even if it doesn’t feel like that to you atm. Also a diagnosis ( of whatever, I have no idea ) if it comes is not a bad, but a good thing, again it may not feel like it. It gives a starting point, and is going to help him, and you going forward.

Getting your SALT to observe your DS in the school environment is a good plan too. Good luck with it all.

How do you know needs of the 'other' children in the intervention room? I think you somehow think your child is 'better' tthan the other children, while clearly the school identified the child struggles and needs intervention. You seem to think intervention is some sort of excusion and reflects badly on you and/or your child, which is super sad to read.

And feels like the OP is labelling the sen children as ‘lesser’

There is nothing wrong with a person who has just turned four, not being able to sit for long periods of time. Especially boys. They need to move to engage their core and they also need to use their muscles more than the opportunity that a reception class can offer.
The only thing wrong is the environment: remove your child from reception until they have just turned 5.
You're just going to get an extremely frustrated child who needs to run around being annoyed because he cannot communicate his needs as much because he's yet 5 years old.
Forest school, pre-school or a childminders would be much more beneficial than being assessed for not sitting as still as children who are 8-12 months older than him.
Everything evens out by 8 or 9 years old.

I’m worried he won’t learn how to communicate effectively if only around other non verbal children with quite severe SEN.

When children develop communicative language skills as babies and toddlers, they are not learning from other children. Children at that stage of development need to learn from adults not children, so I wouldn’t allow this to be a major concern.

In my experience of working in reception, the expectation does include a lot of sitting and even when not sitting, following instructions, even though there is a lot of free play time too. This is where children will learn to read and write so they do need to be able pay attention to things they aren’t necessarily interested in. If that isn’t appropriate for a child’s individual learning needs then a mainstream reception class isn’t the best place for them. Your child is very fortunate that the school has the facilities and resources to provide appropriate provision.

To be honest from what OP says, he was already not meeting milestones at nursery but as it's much more informal and a much higher adult:child ratio, they were able to manage his needs. OP has already admitted that he would not sit down and listen for phonics, story or a short maths input. Due to his speech, he would not be able to participate in any partner or group activities which are a big part of learning in Reception. He's also going to struggle to engage with the other children and get left out of games because they won't be able to communicate with him.

I'm going to go against those saying you should have deferred, and say what a good job it is that his needs have been picked up and you've got an extra year to play with if needed. I hate to think of the deferred kids who will start, with additional needs, no paperwork/EHCP etc.

OP if they've got an Ed psych involved this early in reception, there's an issue. Thank your lucky stars they have a provision and are using it to support him. Have mild frustration with nursery who clearly should have raised flags to you earlier.

"Everything evens out by 8 or 9".

No it doesn't. Some children have real learning disabilities and they need to be picked up early as school is utterly baffling for them.

My daughter has an IQ of 56. I know this because we paid for her to be assessed privately by an Ed psych in year 5.

School kept fobbing me off.

The problem tends to be anyone recognising a problem, not getting unnecessary help.

OP, kindly, it sounds like your son's school are incredible. They have very quickly picked up on his (sorry) very high level of need and reacted entirely appropriately. He is receiving exemplary support, and further assessment.

I think you thank your lucky stars, because most are not so lucky. And really research neurodiversity, because there are a lot of flags in your posts.

FWIW, the NHS SALT thought our son's speech delay was laziness too. He was diagnosed with ASD in year 1. (He also almost always communicates verbally and has a huge vocabulary now, far more so than my other children).

This!!

Yes I thought the same. The vast majority of parents with SEN kids are pushing for more support, desperate for a formal diagnosis and worried their children are being lost in the crowd of a big class without their needs being met.

This is the most unhelpful post I've read. Everything does not even out by 8 or 9, otherwise the special schools wouldn't exist, would they?

You're doing him a huge disservice OP. Would you be so reluctant to get him diagnosed if it was a physical disability or is it just that you don't want to face up to the fact that he may be autistic?

Having a diagnosis of ASD (if that is what he has) would allow you, his teachers, people who may work with him such as SALT or OT and potentially he himself to understand him better. Right now at 4 he might be able to get all the help he needs (supposedly) without a diagnosis (although I'd bet my bottom dollar that it would make it easier) but what about when he gets older? What about if he starts a job and needs accommodations?

You need to stop just thinking about right now and your own prejudices and do what's best for him. And pretending he doesn't have ASD or whatever else by not getting a diagnosis isn't helping anyone apart from you. Insisting he never needs one just shows your own ignorance.

OP, I'm not sure if one of your concerns is that by being segregated now, DS might be being set on a path that might seal his fate as 'different' for his entire school career, but I just wanted to reassure you that my DD went to a nursery with specialist SALT provision where she was in a small group most of the time for the intensive SALT she needed (we deliberately sought this out on the advice of medical professionals), but then she did move into a mainstream primary school afterwards (still with SEN, obviously, but it wasn't like she was segregated all through school).

While I can understand your concerns about the social side and agree with PPs that you have a right to query the school's approach and to better understand their thinking, it's also worth noting that lots of parents are fighting to get any semblance of specialist SALT provision for their DC. I'm not saying you should just shut up and be grateful, obviously, just that if it turns out that DS would benefit from this provision, it's definitely better to have it early, and it's great that the school are able to accommodate his needs. My advice is more to make sure you're absolutely sure that there's a better option before you push to change the current provision (e.g. by challenging it or moving schools), as it might not be so easy to reinstate the current support.

From my own experience, one of the things I found hardest to manage were my own feelings around having a child with SEN and deciding how best to navigate education to give them the best possible outcomes, especially while the extent of their challenges was still becoming apparent as time went on. It was only as my DC got older that the divergence between their needs and those of their peers became more obvious. It's such a challenge as a parent of a young child with SEN to make the right decisions when you don't know how their needs are going to develop over the next few years.

Also, with another DD of mine, I didn't realise how much she was struggling with communication and other things at school, as we kind of had a shorthand (that I didn't even realise we were doing) at home, and I had assumed she was the same relaxed and chatty child at school, which I found out wasn't the case at all. All of this might be completely irrelevant to your situation, but I thought it worth mentioning because the school assumed DD was the same at home as she was at school too, and so it took a while for us all to realise the differences in behaviour and to all get on the same page. i think some of the teachers probably thought I was in denial, but I had no idea how much DD was struggling when I wasn't there and no-one thought to tell me as they all assumed I knew!

As a former KS2 teacher, the gaps at 8 and 9 are significantly wider than the gaps at 4. I've worked with children of 8 and 9 who are still unable to access the Reception curriculum and that really stands out in a mainstream classroom.

Reception teaching should be active and involve lots of movement. However, that doesn't mean that it's normal for a 4 yo boy not to be able to sit long enough to listen to short story or a phonics input. Libraries run story times for preschool children and the majority of 2 yos are able to stay engaged for short periods.

I disagree. Starting school at CSA would at least remove being a summer born out of the equation, plus OP would have a year to get the specialist help set up. SEN + being young for the year isn't a great combination :(

I know. As a teacher I saw so many parents insist their children don't have additional needs and that they are not like those "other" children who do... So often the support comes too late because parents are in denial.

But the OP didn't know he needed anything beyond SALT.

What's your expertise area, because surely not SEN.

It’s only been 1 week.

They are making sure he’s not being overwhelmed and working out what’s best for him.

Its better to start in this small, quiet group with 1-1 support than it would be the big, louder class where he could struggle.

They will likely integrate him more soon anyway but I would just let them get on with it for now and then speak to them in a month or 2 about your concerns if you still have them.

When you meet up with friends with similar aged children, how does he engage with them?
It sounds like he doesn't speak much. What is his understanding like? How many stage instructions can he respond to for example?

Kindly OP, if school have already initiated an ed psych visit, he must have demonstrated some fairly significant behaviours in a short amount of time. Alongside the speech and la gauge delay which seems to be in hand, the comments you make about attention seem to be significant. In a private nursery setting, the demand to sit and participate is very, very different to what might be expected at school. It sounds like he is really not able to join in things like phonics and number sessions in a way they might expect.
In terms of a diagnosis (if there is one) you say that you would.only persue if it would be beneficial to him. This sounds alarms to me as I simply can't imagine any scenario where it wouldn't be beneficial for you, him and his teachers to have a full understanding of his needs and make up. I'm getting the impression that you feel a 'diagnosis' is a bad thing. I'm a very experienced educatior and differences generally always shown up and it is important that the child and adults in their world understand them to enable maximum support for progress and general happiness.
With respect to what you want to say, I would be appreciative of what is being offr3d here with a couple of caveats. Firstly, it is very early in the term and so you need to make sure that the situation is under regular and frequent review so you can.be sure he remains in the right place. Secondly, I would also ensure there are times in the day where he is mixing with all his peers in a fully mainstream classroom setting.
Best of luck, OP

My daughters both had sen. They could have been kept back, it would have made no difference. They had proper additional needs and what they needed was appropriate support. Waiting a year means another year without support and a child out of year group, which can make the child feel even worse as much younger children can do things they can't.

There seems to be a belief that all children will catch up. But some don't. Imo it is better to think of gaps - and these often widen.

And where would he go now? Many nurseries won't accommodate a child of his age.

As a teacher I saw so many parents insist their children don't have additional needs and that they are not like those "other" children who do... So often the support comes too late because parents are in denial.

While I agree that denial can be a cause of a parent disagreeing that SEN interventions are necessary for their child, I think it's unfair to assume that's the only possible cause.

It's also worth considering whether the parent of a 4 year old should be expected to reliably know how their child compares to their peers, unless they have several other older children of their own without SEN or work with children themselves. How are they supposed to benchmark that themselves?

Obviously, that's where the school, SENCo and health professionals come in, but I don't think it's fair to assume a parent of a 4 year old who doesn't immediately agree that their child is different is necessarily in denial because they can't recognise the signs that a seasoned professional notices.

Also, as I mentioned in my other post below, this is the child's first experience of school, and so the parent likely has no idea whether they're coping with it the way they cope at home, unless the teachers inform them. I think both teachers and parents can end up talking at cross purposes as their own description of the same child's behaviour at home/school simply doesn't match the way they are at school/home respectively.

Also, denial when it comes to one's child's SEN that become increasingly apparent as they age is perfectly natural and, speaking from experience, it does take time and effort to come to terms with the situation. So even if there is an element of that going on here, I doubt it's deliberate or intended to shoehorn an SEN child into a possibly unsuitable mainstream education. It's a pretty common part of the process of parenting an SEN child, IMO, and is more a societal issue than an individual parent issue.