DC kept in a separate group from the rest of the reception class?

[Whattodow]

DS has just turned 4 and started reception last week. He has speech delay which we’re working on, we’ve just started paying for private sessions after having little to no progress through NHS SALT. Other than the speech delay, behaviourally the only ‘issue’ I would say he has is he won’t sit still for long periods unless it’s to do something he’s truly engaged with. He doesn’t throw tantrums at all, has been toilet trained for over a year, has never been violent and sleeps through the night. The speech delay, in my opinion, is the primary concern but as I say, it doesn’t affect his overall behaviour.

He has a ‘My Support Plan’ at school and I had a meeting with the SENCO lead this week to discuss this. She explained that he is in a smaller intervention group most of the time because she believes he would ‘become overwhelmed’ if he were in the main classroom. I didn’t challenge it at the time stupidly because she had thrown a lot of information my way and I was trying to take it all in but in hindsight, I don’t really understand how or why she has come to this conclusion. He was in a private nursery full time for 2 years before starting school with a whole range of children and never became ‘overwhelmed’. As I say, he has never thrown a tantrum and he very rarely even cries, he’s one of the most laid back children I have met and just tends to get on with things.

I’m going to request he spends more time with the main class but I want to make sure I am right in doing so. I understand why the intervention group may help him because it means more 1:1 I believe which could help his speech and overall development but I also think there could be some benefit from spending time with the other children who do talk and who do behave in a more standard way. I’m going to sound bloody awful here but I’m concerned that in being placed almost solely with the SEN children who also don’t talk and who, from what I’ve seen when I collect him because he is in a separate classroom with the other SEN children, seem to have quite severe SEN- still in nappies for example, don’t respond to their names, stim a lot etc, this may actually hinder his development. I think if he spends more time around NT children, he may begin to model his behaviour on theirs which is what started to happen at nursery before the summer break when we noticed he was saying more words and had more patience during activities.

I truly don’t wish to cause any offence so I will have to word it in a way that doesn’t sound terrible. If DS does have SEN, he would be ‘higher functioning’ imo because the only challenging behaviour we really have from him is, as I say, times when he wants to run around rather than sit and pay attention to something. I know the SENCO lead is the expert and I am just his parent so I wanted to double check I am right in requesting this for him? He is also kept separate from the main school at playtime and plays in a smaller enclosed space with the SEN children so he has very little interaction with the wider group which I just don’t personally agree with. He happily played alongside the other children at nursery and was never ‘overwhelmed’ at all.

DS is classed as non verbal because he doesn’t communicate through language

ok Op that is very significant

who classed him as such?

if the other children are non verbal
and you son is non verbal

the fact you haven’t heard them greet their parents like your son greets you… doesn’t mean that they lack any language skills

We don't hear enough positive stories on MN, only the tough school years.

My Son, ASD and ADHD who was in a special school has just left for his final year of a Law degree.

OP it's hard at first, my advice is to keep communicating with the SENco, thos school sounds like they are really proactive and are trying to do their best for your son.

Personally, if at all possible, I would pull him out and enter him in Reception next year. There's a Flexible School Admissions for Summer Borns group on Facebook who will know better than I the procedure for this. During that year in nursery, or wherever, I would also have a look at seeing what additional help may be available for him. If he does have any special educational needs being one of the youngest in the class won't be doing him any favours and the age gap doesn't really narrow as you go up through the years. Good luck!

Sorry. No one has classed him as non verbal and I don’t personally believe he is. He has a wide vocab but is selective in using it. He doesn’t communicate using language very often so he would rather resolve a problem for himself if he can and if not, will pull us by our arm and point to something or he will hand us something he needs help with. For example, if he was playing with Lego and he couldn’t separate two pieces, he would hand it to an adult but wouldn’t say anything.

The NHS SALT said he simply isn’t motivated to use language to communicate because he knows everyone will do whatever he wants without it.

you said he’s been classed as non verbal.

but he hasn’t?

He doesn’t communicate using language very often so he would rather resolve a problem for himself if he can and if not, will pull us by our arm and point to something or he will hand us something he needs help wit

and so for the time being it is so so much better for HIM that he’s in a smaller group

as no way can a teacher of 30 provide this kind of support to one child

If he is being evaluated by an Ed psych within a week ofstarting, they definitely think he has significant additional needs, sorry, I know that will come as a shock. But parents are usually begging the school for assessments and struggle to get them. Schools only have so much ed psych hours and they prioritise who is seen.

What I would suggest is that you check to see if the Ed psych assessment is a formal one or if it is a fairly informal observation to give the staff ideas / clarify their impressions etc. Both are a distinct possibility here.

And you can ask if they are thinking ehc pathway at this stage (if you are in England). Speech and language is a costly service to provide in school and children who receit usually have ehcs.

If your DC is not in a SEN setting then all the children in the group will have wide ranging needs. Many, many children with SEN are exceptionally bright but need support to process language, instructions or help with sensory needs, executive functioning or attending to activities. 4 is very young and if I were you I’d be delighted needs have been picked up early on. The staff will be able to support your DC so they can access academics in the way that’s best for them. Please remember DC are very different in a class environment than at home. Much more demands and navigating sensory overwhelm.

If he does have significant sen, then keeping him back won't help. He is best off in the system, getting the right support sorted out. A place in a specialist unit for speech and language for example.

It's tricky to give advice because the level of his needs is unclear.

Why was he referred to speech and language, and what was the diagnosis?

Actually how well can he talk? At four the typical issues with language are normally around pronunciation, eg nake for snake.

Is he able to use full sentences to communicate?

How many words does he have?

If he is non verbal at school then I can understand why school think a support group is appropriate.

But if he's simply just not that articulate then you need to ask them why they are doing referrals. Is it based on what nursery have said in the handover?

It's incredibly quick for a school to already being talking about referral in the very first week. Which does suggest that there was some advance information

I’m worried he won’t learn how to communicate effectively if only around other non verbal children with quite severe SEN.

I do see why you are concerned and I would just say there is no hurry. He needs time to settle and he has time to develop his communcation. The transition from nursery to reception really can be overwhelming so if he is contented where he is then it's OK for him to be there at least for a little while.

Bear in mind that at the start of the year the reception teacher is getting to know her new class, identifying their needs and educational levels, figuring out how they interact and how they learn, and at the same time dealing with a shedload of kids with issues who are not in the nurture group. She (and the nurture team) may need time to figure out how DS communicates and what support DS needs to have a happy experience with the other kids.

So if he's not miserable I'd wait a bit longer for things to settle and for the staff to get know him.

And if the school are supporting a referral then grab it with both hands! Specialist referrals are like gold dust.

If the school can get him Co assessed by an Ed psychologist within the few weeks (assuming you are in England), the SENDCO clearly sees an urgent need. These things don't usually happen quickly.

Apologies for the mistakes. Basically it very very quick for them to move to assessment.

This ⬆️ also just because his current setting is on the ball doesn't mean everywhere he goes will be, and will accommodate his needs without a diagnosis in place. They all say they do but the reality is very, very different.

Op, I'm sorry but most parents of kids with SEN need to push and push for interventions and assessment. I suspect that you feel he is higher functioning than they do. Is he your only child?

They will be using the group not only for teaching but as an opportunity to assess his needs during the next few weeks. It could well be that they decide to shorten the support group time, or they could keep it as it is while he is learning those vital early reading phonic skills.

I have to say you are very fortunate to have found a school that is so on the ball, in many schools, and indeed many local authorities he would be on a loooong list for intervention. I also imagine that a school so proactive with special needs is making sure that support staff leading intervention groups are well trained, so double whammy for him.

And, btw, it could well be that the “behaviours” he learns from the other children in the group will include patience, perseverance, concentration, self esteem, and good listening skills.

I don't need to echo everyone else's comments. I would ask your private salt to go and see him in school. The ed psych will be very useful also. Children can be vastly different between environments, particularly those with sen. What I knew my ds was like with us and what the salt saw at home was totally different to what he was like at school.

I'd also have a very honest conversation with the school as they are obviously seeing issues they feel require specialist intervention. That may be an over reaction purely due to his speech delay but you need to find out either way.

Think it's important for OP to clarify the nature of the EdPsych evaluation as another PP said upthread - ie EP observation or formal assessment

I agree with this.

I think the other kids in the group being in nappies is mostly irrelevant, it's more a judgement on communication and learning than physical aspects at this stage. He may be physically ahead of them but mentally at the same or comparable level.

I worked with a non verbal child with diagnosed autism. Aged 6 he had a few words like play, toilet, outside, inside, etc. to communicate his needs. He would not engage with any learning with staff or children but if you put the work on a computer he would do it. I don't know how he learned as he never engaged with phonics but he could read fluently.

Another 5 year old child with suspected but not diagnosed autism who could speak fluently would only communicate about her work. If you asked her what did you get for your birthday she wouldn't answer but if you ask her a question about her learning, she would. She wouldn't ask for the toilet, she just wet herself but obviously we told her to just go if she needed, she didn't have to ask. She could read fluently and would read outloud if asked to by staff but just never engaged in any social communication.

Have just seen that your son is practically non verbal. In that case a small group, where he can’t “disappear” is ideal. The leaders of the group will be used to working with non verbal children, many children are non verbal for a variety of reasons, either from physical or emotional needs, and will have materials and activities designed to support variable communication skills, some will be taught signing (eg Makaton) which supports both oral and non verbal communication, others might have communication boards or other systems in place. Whatever the child’s need they will find a way to encourage verbal,participation, for some children this might be giving the child longer to respond, or not making direct eye contact ( I had one like this, side by side fine, face to face not fine). They won’t try to force him to speak, or put pressure on him, but they will find a way to get him communicating in more appropriate ways.

I understand your concerns, but since your sons time in nursery alongside actively verbal children has not progressed his verbal communication skills maybe now is the time for more specific and targeted intervention.

(I'm a SENDCo).

Leading you by the arm is one of the questions in the ADOS (from memory). It does sound like your DS has additional needs and that he is getting support in school.

However, he's still very young and children change so much year to year.

DS1 has just started secondary and is flying. We went through the ASD/ADHD process with him at around 7 or 8, it was a worrying time but it helped me to reflect on my own possible ND and that of the wider family. He got almost full marks in his SATs and is loving secondary (so far!).

Your DS will be fine with the right support.

It sounds like OP needs it explained to her again. I think that's fair enough

If I were you I’d ask for another meeting with the person you’ve seen and say sorry it took you by surprise and you have more q’s and essentially tell them what youve said here.

You could also speak to your Gp or SALT person and tell them and see if they think it’s a good idea or better to stick with the class.. I’d trust your instincts. They’ve only known him a week!!!