DC kept in a separate group from the rest of the reception class?

[Whattodow]

DS has just turned 4 and started reception last week. He has speech delay which we’re working on, we’ve just started paying for private sessions after having little to no progress through NHS SALT. Other than the speech delay, behaviourally the only ‘issue’ I would say he has is he won’t sit still for long periods unless it’s to do something he’s truly engaged with. He doesn’t throw tantrums at all, has been toilet trained for over a year, has never been violent and sleeps through the night. The speech delay, in my opinion, is the primary concern but as I say, it doesn’t affect his overall behaviour.

He has a ‘My Support Plan’ at school and I had a meeting with the SENCO lead this week to discuss this. She explained that he is in a smaller intervention group most of the time because she believes he would ‘become overwhelmed’ if he were in the main classroom. I didn’t challenge it at the time stupidly because she had thrown a lot of information my way and I was trying to take it all in but in hindsight, I don’t really understand how or why she has come to this conclusion. He was in a private nursery full time for 2 years before starting school with a whole range of children and never became ‘overwhelmed’. As I say, he has never thrown a tantrum and he very rarely even cries, he’s one of the most laid back children I have met and just tends to get on with things.

I’m going to request he spends more time with the main class but I want to make sure I am right in doing so. I understand why the intervention group may help him because it means more 1:1 I believe which could help his speech and overall development but I also think there could be some benefit from spending time with the other children who do talk and who do behave in a more standard way. I’m going to sound bloody awful here but I’m concerned that in being placed almost solely with the SEN children who also don’t talk and who, from what I’ve seen when I collect him because he is in a separate classroom with the other SEN children, seem to have quite severe SEN- still in nappies for example, don’t respond to their names, stim a lot etc, this may actually hinder his development. I think if he spends more time around NT children, he may begin to model his behaviour on theirs which is what started to happen at nursery before the summer break when we noticed he was saying more words and had more patience during activities.

I truly don’t wish to cause any offence so I will have to word it in a way that doesn’t sound terrible. If DS does have SEN, he would be ‘higher functioning’ imo because the only challenging behaviour we really have from him is, as I say, times when he wants to run around rather than sit and pay attention to something. I know the SENCO lead is the expert and I am just his parent so I wanted to double check I am right in requesting this for him? He is also kept separate from the main school at playtime and plays in a smaller enclosed space with the SEN children so he has very little interaction with the wider group which I just don’t personally agree with. He happily played alongside the other children at nursery and was never ‘overwhelmed’ at all.

I think you are totally reasonable to query the amount of time he's spending in the SEN group, as it sounds like he could be in a mainstream class with some supports. His language development won't be helped by spending a lot of time with non-verbal kids.

It's great that the school has good SEN provision and is proactive, but that doesn't mean they make the right decisions for every child.

this gives me hope for my teen adhd boy!

They're paying for him to have more adult attention and an a dedicated space, if you want his speech delay to improve he needs quiet, focused activities.
I get you think he was fine in nursery for 2 years, but maybe it wasn't quite suited for his needs fully/Reception is a completely different ballgame.

For the time being I would let the teacher figure this out for herself. Teachers usually prefer kids to join the main class so getting your DC to join the others will be on her agenda. School reception is challenging compared to nursery (busier and noisier, more kids and fewer adults, more formal activity) so it's often better to do it this way round - gentle start in a small group with lots of individual attention, plenty of time to settle in and then a gradual move into the broader classroom as it all becomes more familiar and he shows he can cope well - rather than giving your DC too much time in the general class too soon so he's getting overwhelmed or overtired.

I would give it a few weeks and then chat to the teacher about how it's all going.

His reception teacher is part of the SENCO team so I think I’m going to just have a quick word with her when I collect him and try to explain it in the least offensive way. As I say, happy for him to have the 1:1 and think it will
be brilliant for him in the long run but equally believe he would benefit from more time with the wider group too because as it stands, he’s spending most of his time with other non verbal children.

The nursery didn’t have a separate room for SEN children to my knowledge.

if The Ed psych, senco or salt is pushing towards a formal diagnosis then I’d really urge you to take it. A diagnosis helps other people understand what support is needed but will also mean your son is able to better understand his own needs in the future. A diagnosis is not just a label, it’s a way for the right support to be put in place.

also just to reassure you that it’s extremely unlikely that your son will start copying the other sen children. Sen is usually caused by an underlying neurodevelopment need present since birth
(eg. ADHD, a language disorder, autism, dyslexicia) and the traits can’t be passed from child to child,

He points and he says ‘that’.

Can you remember how old he was when he started pointing? Doesn't matter if you can't

Listen to what the staff are advising and thank your lucky stars that you son is already receiving such good support. They will know when he is ready to join in with the robust play of the others in Reception.
My response may seem too simplistic but I would advise against making suggestions to staff after only one week.

Not the exact age. He can say quite a lot of words but he is selective in when he uses them. For example, he will happily wave and say hiiiii enthusiastically to some people but ignore others. He always answers to his name unless he’s super busy playing or whatever and he plays with toys in a usual manner. He’s also brilliant on super Mario games on the switch, better than me… And he can read some words in books. He can finish off some nursery rhymes so if I start singing them, he will finish them off.

He doesn’t like praise though so if I go to town with the praise when he has said a new word or something, he seems to get embarrassed then won’t say the word again for a while.

very proactive senco dept
ed psych evaluation being arranged
reception teacher part of the senco dept

you landed on your feet at this school op

So hes summer born? He probably woukd have benefitted from.a CSA start so starti g rception at 5.
You then woukd know more about his speech and if he needed a ehcp you would be closer to getting that.

How bad is his attention?
Will he even sit down for story time?

What happens if yoiu did try to make him stay sat down?

Never having a.tantrum seems the opposite extreme. Not all asd kids woukd be havi g tantrums they can be placid- too placid.

Like pp it sounds like he shoukd be with class a bit - probably at minumum break times.
But can a teacher teach with him wandering round the room?

My eldest has attention issues and did struggke to sit in reception.

They probably do 10-15 min phonics sessions and some writing the sound out.

Re eption really isnt free play they only put out certain toys. Which they may have to move around through.

How big is the yeargroup as im surprised there are several kids in nappies?

I'm a teacher and I wouldn't be happy with him spending all the time in this group either. I have taught a wide range of children with a varying severity of needs and they have always spent the majority of the time in class with designated intervention time and adjustments where needed even if thst is the just the expectations of the staff!
Reception should include lots of access to free choice provision and learning through play so I can't see any reason why he shouldn't be in class with all his peers during these times. Of course the smaller group times for more focused/formal learning sound great and really beneficial but this should only be a small percentage of the day at this point in the term!

Op gently I know it can be really difficult to accept your child has SEN and as you have seen there can be a wide variety in these needs. That does not mean full days in a large class are right for your son - S&L difficulties and Neurodiversity are neither "cured" by interacting with NT children.

Please accept the support school are offering. My son started school after coping fine in nursery no concerns beyond SALT. School quickly identified his additional needs and made referrals resulting in a ND diagnosis. As he has gone through school he has required more support as some issues become bigger over time so while things may seem fine now they might not always be.
Staff meet hundreds of kids so are well versed in identifying those who benefit from intervention. It may come to nothing and he just needs a little more support as he transitions to school but with waiting lists as they are I wouldn't push their advice aside.

I was going to say the same!

You have been very lucky so far!

We are just starting Y3 and still trying to get interventions in place for dyslexia and SALT! Every year they get it in place by about February and then in September you start the fight again with a new teacher who ignores the handover notes. Snatch the schools hands off for anything they are offering!

Did wonder about putting him back a year and whether that would be beneficial because he is a young summer born baby, some of the children have already turned 5 and he only turned 4 a few weeks ago!

The other two SEN children in his group are definitely in nappies, I have no idea about the wider class but there’s around 50 children at a guess.

He will sit if he’s engaged in something but we noticed a real turn around in this before summer, he had started to sit at the back for carpet time at nursery and would engage with it. Had summer off and hasn’t been afforded the opportunity to try so far in reception so I don’t know how well he would sit now.

What about the other kids whilst he's running amok?

I think you really do need a frank conversation with the school OP. I'm a SENCO myself and I'm not sure I'd be happy with this. We include children who could have a special school place within our main Reception class. I'd be interested to know how long they intend this set up to last and if there is a plan to build up to break times etc with the main class.

I also feel you really need to have a discussion to get an idea of how concerned the school are. Even a summer born should be able to sit for a story or very short phonics session. This doesn't sound like your expectation. Most mainstream schools get a handful of EP sessions for a year and use them extremely carefully. To be using up an EP session on a Reception child so early in the year would be very surprising to me. It's great that they are being proactive but it sounds like you are on two very different pages about your child's level of need. I hope you get some reassurance when you speak to the school.

Reception is the transition between nursery and year 1.

In year 1 the children are expected to sit at desks for most of the day and do sit down learning. They do have carpet time but it's limited.

At the start of reception there will be an emphasis on learning through play. But it is learning through play, not just play.

Each day there will be a 10-15 minute carpet time doing phonics. Children are expected to sit on their spot on the carpet and not move about. There's various things they can do to encourage children to do this - wobble seats, little cushions for them. If there is a TA then the TA can sit next to and keep hold of anyone struggling to pay attention.

The activities after that will also be a mix of adult led and play. So for example if their theme for the term is three little pigs, the home corner might be set up as a home with pretend kitchen etc for role play involving cooking/cleaning etc.
They will have a table with straw, wood, and three pigs and a wolf for children to retell the story or make up their own using those characters.
They will have an adult led activity where for example they might colour in a pig (fine motor control) or play a maths game involving counting pigs.

The children will be in groups and each group will get a turn at the adult led activity/retelling table etc.

In addition, it's very common for children with speech delay to really really struggle with phonics. Phonics is all about noticing the sounds within words that people say, and children with speech delay often struggle with this.

Your child may well need specific targeted teaching that takes his speech delay into account. In addition, if he only does stuff if he is interested, that won't work well in a reception environment. They need to sit still for phonics input, they need to move groups when told to,

There's a difference between reception and nursery - different expectations, lower staff ratio etc. Also depends on what type of nursery he went to. A school based nursery tends to be more focused on fostering individual development than one where it is based on the parents' need for childcare, where they will have a similar provision but less interest in outcomes.

Regardless I think you have to accept that your son has needs that mean he can't readily join in with the rest of the class. It's a good thing in that they will likely be working on skills that may eventually support him to integrate better.

It's not for you to judge the needs of the other children in the group. No two children are exactly the same in terms of needs. The others may be more boisterous (I'm assuming, from what you say), but more proficient in language skills, for example.

I very much doubt that he spends all the time in the small group- the school would be unusually well-resourced to achieve this. Plus, of course he should mix with the class if his behaviour and social skills allow. A reception curriculum should be play based with a significant period of time every day for children to self select activities.

However, I totally understand your concerns and queries - you should make another appointment to discuss these as it may well reassure you.

Sorry, I don’t think SEN can be cured by spending time with NT people and that’s not really what I meant.

I truly will accept all the help offered and think the intervention group is great, I also accept it’s a good and proactive school. I don’t want it to appear as though I’m ungrateful for the help or trying to deny my DS has SEN. I’m just concerned that he is spending most of his time with other non verbal children so isn’t around children who are talking in a usual manner. He can actually say a lot of words but hasn’t quite mastered communicative language fully as yet and I’m worried he won’t learn how to communicate effectively if only around other non verbal children with quite severe SEN.

Of course the needs of the other children are not my concern and I have no idea whether they are boisterous or not. I do know they are non verbal and seem to just make a series of noises, I also know they don’t respond to their names when their parents call for them (DS always does and will turn and run towards me for a hug) and they are also still in nappies because I have heard the ‘handover’ conversations- DS was fully trained within a week shortly after his third birthday.

DS is classed as non verbal because he doesn’t communicate through language but he has quite a wide vocabulary so is able to say quite a lot.

From what they told me, he is with this small group most of the time including at lunchtime play.

Definitely keep an eye on this and ask all the questions you need. SENCOS are not always the experts we need them to be. Sometimes they can be very wrong! Make notes of your concerns and observations, and ask for feedback and chance to discuss.

I note you say the other children are non verbal. Is that because you haven't heard them speak? It doesn't mean they don't understand language or can't communicate. Besides it's the adult who provides the role modelling of language, and the activities will support the children in learning to speak more effectively. It would hardly be fair to have an articulate child in a withdrawal group who didn't need the support.

As others have said, the school sound great - early identification of needs and proactively dealing with these. Try to trust their judgement - they will have known 100s of children of your son's age and what constitutes SEN or not.

My son has SEN and he is also taken into a smaller group. He is in Year One now - and struggles with back & forth conversation - he can tell you things but can't respond v well to questions. The smaller group is to give the group of them extra support - help them interact, build confidence, and help them build relationships. If school think it's needed - i would listen to them. When I was told i thought it sounded great that the school were being proactive to help him. But I hvae known my kid has SEN since he was 3 so maybe it wasn't so muhc of a shock.