DC kept in a separate group from the rest of the reception class?

[Whattodow]

DS has just turned 4 and started reception last week. He has speech delay which we’re working on, we’ve just started paying for private sessions after having little to no progress through NHS SALT. Other than the speech delay, behaviourally the only ‘issue’ I would say he has is he won’t sit still for long periods unless it’s to do something he’s truly engaged with. He doesn’t throw tantrums at all, has been toilet trained for over a year, has never been violent and sleeps through the night. The speech delay, in my opinion, is the primary concern but as I say, it doesn’t affect his overall behaviour.

He has a ‘My Support Plan’ at school and I had a meeting with the SENCO lead this week to discuss this. She explained that he is in a smaller intervention group most of the time because she believes he would ‘become overwhelmed’ if he were in the main classroom. I didn’t challenge it at the time stupidly because she had thrown a lot of information my way and I was trying to take it all in but in hindsight, I don’t really understand how or why she has come to this conclusion. He was in a private nursery full time for 2 years before starting school with a whole range of children and never became ‘overwhelmed’. As I say, he has never thrown a tantrum and he very rarely even cries, he’s one of the most laid back children I have met and just tends to get on with things.

I’m going to request he spends more time with the main class but I want to make sure I am right in doing so. I understand why the intervention group may help him because it means more 1:1 I believe which could help his speech and overall development but I also think there could be some benefit from spending time with the other children who do talk and who do behave in a more standard way. I’m going to sound bloody awful here but I’m concerned that in being placed almost solely with the SEN children who also don’t talk and who, from what I’ve seen when I collect him because he is in a separate classroom with the other SEN children, seem to have quite severe SEN- still in nappies for example, don’t respond to their names, stim a lot etc, this may actually hinder his development. I think if he spends more time around NT children, he may begin to model his behaviour on theirs which is what started to happen at nursery before the summer break when we noticed he was saying more words and had more patience during activities.

I truly don’t wish to cause any offence so I will have to word it in a way that doesn’t sound terrible. If DS does have SEN, he would be ‘higher functioning’ imo because the only challenging behaviour we really have from him is, as I say, times when he wants to run around rather than sit and pay attention to something. I know the SENCO lead is the expert and I am just his parent so I wanted to double check I am right in requesting this for him? He is also kept separate from the main school at playtime and plays in a smaller enclosed space with the SEN children so he has very little interaction with the wider group which I just don’t personally agree with. He happily played alongside the other children at nursery and was never ‘overwhelmed’ at all.

You’re not wrong, op, and i wouldn’t like the total separation either. I think you can have a conversation with the school about it.

I would however be wary of wanting him to be with mainstream children because he will learn to imitate their behaviour. If he is not neurotypical, your goal shouldn’t be to make him behave as though he is, but to encourage him to be the healthiest and happiest version of his neurodivergent self. Pretending to be something he is not will have a devastating impact on his mental health in the long term.

Is your ds happy in the group he’s in? I think on the one hand, having access to this higher level of support is good dust and something people usually have to fight for. On the other, there likely are experiences in the main classroom that he could benefit from and hearing speech around him could be a huge positive.

I would also consider that without a diagnosis, whilst he may be supported in his primary school, he may not in secondary, or in life. He may not be accommodated in extra curricular groups etc. But most importantly he will lack the explanation for his differences and the impact of that on self esteem is huge.

Some children with ASD (if that’s what OP’s DS has) learn better through watching speech and interaction being modelled on things such as YouTube videos than in real life. So this isn’t necessarily the best advice.

Autistic and adhd children also often use screen time as a self regulation tool.

Teacher here - totally agree! The number of posters who are questioning OP for raising concerns is worrying. Schools don't always get it right.

I'm not surprised you're concerned about this
It sounds like you think there's nothing SEN except he isn't talking.

Do you suspect he might be really very very bright at all? It's not uncommon for gifted kids to talk late. I wonder because it looks like he's quite capable of speech but can't see the point really. He's capable of getting what he wants so why use words?
There may be other SEN but it may be that the teacher, being on the SEN team is seeing what's not there. A sort of confirmation bias. So they see an issue and assume it must be SEN.

Now as it happens being gifted is also a SEN and it doesn't mean he'll have an easy ride in life if he is but being stuck with kids who struggle intellectually won't help him at all. It certainly won't encourage him to speak to them.

Then again he might but be gifted but just be bright enough to realise he doesn't need to talk (I have a friend who said nothing until he was 4 because his sister was brilliant at interpreting what he wanted. First thing he did say was a fully formed beautiful full sentence and that happened because his sister was out).
In that case he probably does just need time and a teacher with patience. Some time 1-2-1 may help; may not.

And then of course he may have some other SEN and school may be absolutely nailing it.

I think you need to go back. Apologise and say it was a lot to take in and you have some questions.

Two main ones. 1. What's his time split between main class and SEN

1. What is the condition that they suspect? Why?

Also. If he didn't have the speech issue but did have whatever the other reasons are, would they think SEN?

And does what they see accord with what you see?

If you feel they're wrong then you will nicely have to say so. Be open minded. If he's SEN then that's what he is. They may have some expertise but they are not the expert in your son and they never will be. You've got 4 years experience and observations. They've had a week.

Hi, past "gifted" kid here.

I'm autistic. Hope that helps.

That should read Then again he might not be gifted

Yep. The 2 have a lot of cross over and they're not mutually exclusive.

I've also pm you with a question. I hope that's ok.

Also if you read the OPs posts you'd see he never did interactive play, only side by side play, very restrictive in behaviours, and now has demonstrated speech apraxia beyond the average age of speaking, he also has a vocabulary so is probably a gestalt language processor and the school have very politely been saying to OP he is overstimulated in the main classroom, or overwhelmed and has demonstrated that he is not developmentally ready to reliably follow adult led tasks. He is self directed in his attention. He will only pay attention to things that interest him.

There are so many things that stand out that scream SEN.

SALT here. I find this post really misleading for OP. There is no link giftedness and late talking.

Not talking and then suddenly coming out with a sentence isn’t late talking, that’s a typical development and would likely be linked to being neurodivergent,

There is a big cross over between ‘giftedness’ and neurodivergence. What you are likely describing is autistic language development.

You also seem to have missed that OPs little boy also has other things he’s finding difficult - not being able to attend to adult directed activities (and therefore not able to learn yet from whole class teaching), playing alongside rather than with peers, pulling adults by the arm instead of pointing and being more passive than you’d expect for a mainly pre-verbal child.

Does she?
She says "...with lots of learning through play which DS has always responded well to."

And later that he plays with toys normally.
Always responds to his name unless he's super busy. That's normal behaviour on the face of it.

Reads books, plays with toys and also computer games. I didn't see a suggestion that he's got restricted interests. I may have missed it.

I think the mention of playing alongside the children at nursery was meant as saying he played at nursery, as did the other children, rather than it being a comment on him not playing together.

I'm not at all saying the school have got it wrong. I'm saying it's ok to question it. The OP seemed to be to be asking if it's ok to go back and ask questions and if she then doesn't agree to push back. I think it's always good to question and it's always right to advocate for your child until they can advocate for themselves - if you do the research and keep an open mind.

I don't think going in all guns blazing that they're wrong is a good idea but I didn't get the impression the OP was determined they're wrong. Just worried they might be it there may be a better way for her child.

“ I won’t be pushing for any formal diagnosis unless I think it would be of benefit to him and his life.”

As a parent of 2 autistic children who works in a primary school please do push for a formal diagnosis, it can only help your child. Have you not seen all these adults being diagnosed in later life with ASD or ADHD and saying finally I understand why I’m the way I am?
By not getting them a formal diagnosis (which can take years at the moment) you are doing your child a disservice, it will help open more doors and is only a positive thing.

You’re lucky his school are offering this option, resources in schools are so stretched at the minute and I’d be taking all the support on offer.

I think the mention of playing alongside the children at nursery was meant as saying he played at nursery, as did the other children, rather than it being a comment on him not playing together.

I agree. Lots of posters seem to have jumped on this particular word as evidence for SN! Sometimes a word used more generally, takes on a completely unintended meaning, because it is misinterpreted by some professionals who use it in a very specific way.

I think working in schools/ sens makes you realise most parents have to fight for the type of support OP is describing. Resources in schools are scarce at this point and it would be extremely unusual for a school to over identify need and almost unheard of for them to throw money and staffing at an Ed psych assessment if it wasn’t needed.

As a salt I meet a lot of parents who say ‘it’s just a language delay’ but by 4 that’s very unlikely. There’s usually something else going on like autism or maybe DLD. You also learn to read between the lines of things parents say that may seem subtle but are in fact red flags for neurodivergence.

I think it’s really important that lots of posters have tried to give OP the context of that before she talks to school.

Just speaking as a mum to an ASD 3 year old - I would disagree with your point on her DS having the opportunity to enjoy ‘free play’ with the NT kids for the reasons you outlaid. The thing with my son (as an example of an ASD early years child) is that he is operating very much on his own agenda right now and does not yet fully understand the concept of joint attention, turn taking and joining in with a focused task for a planned period of time. Of course at 3 these are developing skills for him and he does these things for some of the time, but not yet consistently. So for the OP’s son, he might not benefit from a mixed approach, and might have a hard time understanding the transition from free play to structured time compared to the children in the main class. It might cause him to become dysregulated and become frustrated at the sudden change in routine for example, and this would disrupt HIS learning, not necessarily disrupt the main class.

As in my own original comment, as a parent she is well within her rights to ask questions and understand fully of the decisions that are being made and why they are of benefit to her child. I am potentially a pain in the ass for my sons pre-school because I like to know everything, but I feel that the more I know the more empowered I feel as a parent.

I have been told he can receive all the help required without a formal diagnosis

That is true but only in a limited sense. Yes, schools are expected to do their best to meet all pupils' needs with or without a formal diagnosis.

so it isn’t necessary to ever have one.

That part is not true. First, the assessments will bring details about his strengths and needs that will help the school. Specialist assessments will give a lot of detail and insight. Second,he may need support out of school too - clubs, childcare, therapies. And life goes on after he leaves school too. A formal diagnosis will make more help available.

The earlier you start the process the better. There are long waits built in to the system already. And the longer you leave it the harder it could be for him to adapt to the diagnosis and help. Five year olds accept what adults say is good for them, 10 year olds not so much!

Sounds like you've struck gold with this school OP. Having this sort of stuff just handed to you isn't the norm.

Schools see what we don't because it's our normal. Families going back generations who today would be diagnosed. That's why parents can be slow off the block, because they don't see anything different to what they've always known in their own families.

What struck me from your OP, was the lightly stepping apologetic tone and fear of offending. Like you're on the outside.

You are a SN parent like we are. Accepting that is a first step.

You could put him in a friendly drama group outside school or basic music class (one that does rhythm and songs) to get interaction .
School will want to move him into main class when he is ready
Ask for a review meeting with senco etc in couple if weeks. It is only a week!!

I wouldn't be happy either op.

Schools or SALTs are not always right. It's perfectly fine to question and expect detailed answers on why they think the mainstream class is not appropriate for him.

IMHO they sound a little overzealous, considering he's 4 and some of his behaviours can still reasonably be considered 'normal' for his age. And whilst I totally appreciate that most people seem to have the opposite problem (struggling for help/intervention/diagnosis with SEN etc), the opposite can and does exist too.

We had a SALT (NHS, outside of school thankfully) who seemed determined to prove that ds1 was autistic from the age of 2 to 6. Many, many assessments and reviews - and contact with the school who didn't actually agree with her on many points and kept him within his main class. His only issue was, in fact, speech issues. Which he no longer has - it took him until about age 8 to conpletely level out with his peers. Had she been in any kind of authority position within his school I've no doubt his feet wouldn't have touched the floor on his way to the specialist SEN class.

Yes, it is the best advice. Screen time delays speech. All the research is there. If my child had a speech delay I'd turn off the Nintendo switch.

Not the exact age. He can say quite a lot of words but he is selective in when he uses them. For example, he will happily wave and say hiiiii enthusiastically to some people but ignore others. He always answers to his name unless he’s super busy playing or whatever and he plays with toys in a usual manner. He’s also brilliant on super Mario games on the switch, better than me… And he can read some words in books. He can finish off some nursery rhymes so if I start singing them, he will finish them off.

He doesn’t like praise though so if I go to town with the praise when he has said a new word or something, he seems to get embarrassed then won’t say the word again for a while.

OP, I highly recommend The Selective Mutism Resource Book by Maggie Johnson - it's quite expensive but worth every penny if you have a child with selective mutism - we've always recommended that sencos, SALT etc order a copy too, which they have, so that we're all using the same strategies.

It has a section on how to react when they say something new or speak in an unexpected environment for the first time (basically just hide your excitement and pretend it's totally normal, IIRC), which was helpful as it's the opposite of the usual positive reinforcement strategy, but actually does work better for selective mutism (my DC are autistic, so I think that affects their awkwardness around being praised as well).

The book also has heaps of other helpful advice and strategies - it's just your comment reminded me of this part. I found that before school and home were on the same page with the strategies from the book, it was harder as some very well-meaning staff and pupils would think they were helping by encouraging DC to speak and drawing attention to the issue, when that often increased the anxiety around talking in school.

@Whattodow I have two stories to share.

DD1 was pretty much as you describe your DS in terms of behaviour. Slightly more hyperactive, and she was quite verbal, but would say 'I want bowl eat' (I'm hungry) or 'It pink and it go weeeee' (I want to use the slide), so you had to really know her to know what she wanted. Preschool picked up immediately that she was 'behind'. She would have gone through the processes you're going through, except that she started to fall over and got seen at the hospital, where a developmental paediatrician saw her. She had global developmental delay, but a very mixed profile - delays of between 6 months and 18 months at the age of 2 years 9 months. She was given 1:1 support in preschool (for safety) and then went to a special school. Because she was given an moderate learning disability diagnosis, the doctors were content with that as an explanation. She eventually got an ASD diagnosis at 15. Now, she's 18. She still finds social relationships the trickiest of things, and she is very verbal, with a large vocabulary, but her comprehension lags and her communication skills drop drastically if she's upset. She's obviously got SEN and she has quite complex needs, so she has transitioned to the Adult LD team smoothly.

DD2 was much more passive. She was self-directed, and did well in year R. If the teacher demonstrated a skill, she would present a copy of it, perfectly. But it all fell apart in year 1, when she had to do what the teacher wanted, when she wanted, and everything had been changed. All the children wanted to play actual games, and the teacher wanted her to join up her writing. She limped through, getting sicker and sicker - we now know it was overwhelm manifesting as vomiting, fevers, etc. We had to change school in year 1 (Head Teacher was awful) and year 2 (she just couldn't cope when they removed the nurture provision). She finally got diagnosed with ASD at 11, and limped through years 7-9. In year 10 she completely fell apart. Out of school. Got an EHCP, moved to a specialist independent school which despite best efforts, wasn't consistent enough. Year 11 was spent at home on a EOTAS package, and now she's at a specialist provision that gives 1:1 support.

The fight has been so far harder for DD2. Please, please, accept the support while you have it.

Not a very sensitive post from someone (a parent of an SEN child) who should know better. Did you not have some element of denial when your child was diagnosed? I certainly did, and to a degree, still consider my now adult daughter is more able than she actually is. Mine was born with a disability, and with that came a certain amount of grief. I'm sure if you discover your child's disability when they're four, that is also a sad time for any parent. Try and find a little compassion for the OP.

They would interfere with others learning hence why they r in a small group, school are correct to do so, not nice for u but best for all concerned.

In terms of development
Play alongside does mean play next to perhaps watchimg but
not
saying lets play with this ball or playing with tea cups and doing a pretend tea party.

Does he play mario with you? Take turns?

Its inreresting from the SALT re doing takes directed by someone else as that is what my 12yo most obviously struggles with (asd/adhd waitlist) homework amd even toothbrushing a nightmaee as she NEVER chooses to do these things