Update on "riots" tonight from local news sites

[fernsandlilies]

Brighton - Less than 10 anti-immigration 'protesters' and about 1,500 counter-protesters with more arriving all the time. Jazz band playing. No violence observed or reported. A couple of buses had to stop for a few minutes to get through the crowd.

Hastings likewise - a handful of anti-immigrationists, and hundreds of counter protesters, chanting "say it loud, say it clear, refugees are welcome here".

Ok, almost 87,000 people applied for asylum in uk last year. Now let's suppose it's YOUR job to house them. Where exactly do you house 87,000 people? Serious question. Council houses have long waiting lists and are unable to house all the indigenous citizens who need a place to live, let alone the newcomers. so where exactly do they go? Just one thing though, you had better hurry up because by next year there will be another 80 odd thousand to be housed. The following year another 80 thousand and so on. When exactly do you say we are out of options? we can not help.

I fully understand they may have a preference and it's easier to settle in the UK

Well that's why they're trying to get here and not France? It's not that hard to understand, is it?

You've missed an option: Training existing non contributing people that are already here ...

The other night the BBC had an article on some sink hole, knife ridden, Northern Council estate where the youths were complaining of no prospects etc. The next article was talking about a shortage of drivers.

Me - Why not take the first lot and train them to be those much needed drivers?

The government and most posters here - Why not let in immigrants to fill those places?

The government (and mainly left wingers) have had no qualms in robbing other countries (usually poor countries) of their skilled staff for far too long with zero qualms about doing it (even Drs and nurses for the NHS). We should be self sufficient in all of these skills if the unis/NHS had enough training places. But the government and left wingers keep saying "immigration welcome" rather than training to meet our own needs rather than sucking the rest of the poor world dry.

Ok, almost 87,000 people applied for asylum in uk last year. Now let's suppose it's YOUR job to house them. Where exactly do you house 87,000 people? Serious question. Council houses have long waiting lists and are unable to house all the indigenous citizens who need a place to live, let alone the newcomers. so where exactly do they go? Just one thing though, you had better hurry up because by next year there will be another 80 odd thousand to be housed. The following year another 80 thousand and so on. When exactly do you say we are out of options? we can not help.

^It's not just housing, where's the infrastructure, hospitals, schools, GPs? No one has an answer.

last year 2000 British medics left uk to work and live in Australia, just saying

@Zebedee999

"The other night the BBC had an article on some sink hole, knife ridden, Northern Council estate where the youths were complaining of no prospects etc. The next article was talking about a shortage of drivers.

Me - Why not take the first lot and train them to be those much needed drivers?"

For several reasons:

1. a lack of funding available to take the first lot and train them
2. Many of the first lot have no experience of holding down a normal job and would have difficulty doing so (not turning up on time or at all).
3. a welfare system that means that there is more economic sense in not working than working (housing, benefits etc).
4. a lack of agency - I'll complain about lack of prospects but it's not my fault for being unwilling to try but the fault of the Government, immigrants etc or anyone except me.

So in summary it's a combination of the Government, welfare system and the individuals themselves.

I agree that settling in France is a lot easier if you can speak French is easier but it's perfectly doable just in English. Indeed large numbers of Brits (pre Brexit) used to retire to France and Spain without be able (or willing) to learn French or Spanish.

Besides if you are willing then it's perfectly feasible to learn in a year enough French to get by on and very good French in under 2 years.

There's a world of difference between the level of language a retiree needs vs that needed to hold down a job.

What ! British people going to another country for a better life ? Where are they going to be living! They’re stealing locals jobs , places in school, gps etc etc. why is it ok for British people to go and live in other countries but it’s not good for someone from Afghanistan to escape from a war (that the uk has taken part on) and this not being ok? And don’t tell me it’s cuz the government has to provide the house to the asylum seekers. If someone complains that there is lack of housing , gps, schools because of immigrants then the British are causing this same issue in other countries around the world.

Plus where are the jobs ? If they are hundreds of miles away, how do they afford setting up a home there ? Young people are having to live at home for longer and longer because the CoL is sky high.

Some people wouldn’t move far from their established family and friends network - this isn’t limited to poor people either, I’ve heard plenty of comments about moving overseas for work.

I think that these young people will also suffer prejudice regards where they are from. If you are spending thousands training an HGV driver, wouldn’t you pick the less risky option of someone with a work history ? Employers may consider immigrants better potential employees as their visa status depends on employment.

I agree and I don't see immigrants stealing jobs. When they first come here they usually take jobs that nobody else wants and work jolly hard too to get on their feet. I think it is commendable.

👏🏻 👏🏻 👏🏻

We have a falling natural population. We need migration.

The majority of those 700,000 came here to work or study.

The majority of those who came here to work are in health and care sectors. So not only are they providing vital services, they are contributing taxes.

Those who come to study are paying huge university fees. We need international students to keep our universities functioning.

I did a bit of strategy consultancy work for a care agency. This agency had a full in-house training programme providing NVQ qualifications alongside working. They also paid at the top rate.

It was impossible to recruit in the UK enough people to meet demand. They would recruit and train people at great expense only for them to say within a few weeks that they can only work 10 hours per week.

Post Brexit, the agency had to resort to hiring from India at great expense. It was a last resort. The agency would have much much preferred hiring and training local people as it would have been significantly cheaper and easier, but there were no applicants who would work full time hours.

About 600,000 people die each year. Around 500,000 emigrate. There's a lot of different figures to consider.

We have a 'falling natural population' for many reasons but one of the main ones is a lack of affordable housing. Manageable mortgages and rents, and long- term secure tenancies (only available through social landlords) encourage people to start families. Having both parents work full time to pay eyewatering housing costs means equally punishing childcare costs, which reduces the birthrate further.

This is an excellent post.

This is a really interesting reply- thanks.
I'm actually not at all surprised by what you've said about Iranian influence over the groups involved. I'd like to see more evidence of that- and I don't mean that in an aggressive way- it would be genuinely interesting. I know of other diaspora groups that say the same thing about their own nefarious governments, Eritrea being the worst example.

I understand all the points you make. I'm not sure I agree with all of them, but we do seem to agree that alot does indeed come down to nuance, and different interpreations of words.

You are correct that a new term for 'agreeing that Israel should exist, and hostages must be freed, and violence must end, and Gaza must be rebuilt, and a peaceful two state solutuion must be found' but I am sure that whatever form of words was created, people would start arguing.

I studied in France for a few years. I remember one day in my halls of residence a pro IRA film was shown, and many fellow left wing students cheered when the IRA shot dead 18yr old squaddies dead. I took issue with this- and when I talked to the French/Spanish/Italians etc who did this, it was obvious they had no understanding of the conflict.....it was a just a 'cool' cause. I think there is a lot of this going with the Palestinian cause.

First, I wouldn't consider asylum seekers separately from other people seeking housing. They are a very small proportion of them. Suggesting that housing and infrastructure issues are caused by a small fraction of the population rather than the population as a whole has a very nasty taste to it.

As to what I'd do - build more houses and infrastructure which has been horribly neglected over the past 14 years. Second, I'd allow asylum seekers to work and find accommodation until their case has been heard. Third, I'd process their claims far, far more quickly. Finally, I'd allow people to claim asylum and have their cases heard where they are, and not have to come here on a dangerous voyage to claim asylum. Finally, I'd make it extremely expensive to have an empty home.

I think in the example you give, the march organisers are being anti-Semitic, but this doesn't extend to all the people on the march. I've been on anti-facist demonstrations in the past and I wouldn't hold myself responsible or connected to the placards and slogans of other marchers.

Have just seen that video of Ricky Jones and am astounded. What on earth did the crowd think they doing in applauding that disgraceful speech? Don't some politicians have a brain in their heads? He's been suspended but the footage is out there now and god knows what harm it will do.

I'm not saying every single person who attended is antisemitic, but I'm sure you can see the problem if the intent of those organising it is one of anti-Semitism. People are willingly joining a protest run by antisemites with an incredibly strong anti-Semitic vibe. Those attending are at the very least ignoring anti-Semitism, which is not ok at an anti-racism event. Or anywhere, really.

It's a bit like defending those who joined the riots who aren't racist but just pissed off with the world. It wouldn't occur to me to defend them because they've chosen to align themselves with racists. That's just not acceptable to me.

I hope you see my point, even if you don't agree with it.