Update on "riots" tonight from local news sites

[fernsandlilies]

Brighton - Less than 10 anti-immigration 'protesters' and about 1,500 counter-protesters with more arriving all the time. Jazz band playing. No violence observed or reported. A couple of buses had to stop for a few minutes to get through the crowd.

Hastings likewise - a handful of anti-immigrationists, and hundreds of counter protesters, chanting "say it loud, say it clear, refugees are welcome here".

The organisers of the protest in North Finchley openly and actively said they don't want anyone who is for a two state solution to attend. They don't believe in the right for Jewish self-determination.

I'm sorry, but allowing people who carry pro-Hamas symbols and placards to attend does mean the protest on whole can be considered anti-Semitic. The organisers need to take responsibility and ban people who don't agree with what they're protesting about.

I would never attend any kind of event that Tommy Robinson and his friends were welcome to attend with their disgusting slogans and placards. I would expect supposed anti-racists to take a similar stance when it comes to anti-Semitism.

I'm not going to comment on anything to do with events in Israel, Gaza etc. This is not the thread for it and I'm purposely avoiding the Middle East board. I'm only here because of the racism / antisemitism issue. I wish for antisemitism to be taken as seriously as other forms of racism are. The minimising of it on here has been quite heartbreaking to be honest. Being told we're making it about ourselves when we're just asking to also be considered in this wider conversation.

We'll never know if it was real or not but even though there were thankfully no protests, they've wasted hundreds of hours of police time which could have been better spent on local community policing. Where I live, which is nowhere near to where riots have taken place or were planned, a communication was sent out yesterday explaining how the local police force had been affected and the impact on dealing with local issues.

The left have redefined Zionist to mean 'supporter of Netanyahu and what is going on in Gaza' contrary to its actual meaning.

Normal Zionists, which includes most Jews, as it is about support for the existence of Israel as a Jewish state are horrified that it is deemed acceptable to advertise antiracism marches with signs saying 'get Zionists out of Finchley'

And antisemites, who have long been using 'Zionist' as a straight codeword for Jew are laughing themselves silly as supposed anti-racists wave banners saying 'fuck Zionists'.

Anyone on the left who thinks it's acceptable to demonise Zionists really ought to take a look at what's going on there.

Where did they say immigrants were criminals? Or that Europeans with a passport (also immigrants) weren’t?

All they said was that in case of Europeans with passports it was easier to establish who they were and make necessary background checks.

This twisting of opposing opinions and arguments makes any discussion about immigration next to impossible.

All they said was that in case of Europeans with passports it was easier to establish who they were and make necessary background checks.

But they often were t made, were they? There have been plenty of high profile European criminals here. Criminals come from everywhere, including UK.

A preference for European immigrants is often disguised racism, on the basis of skin colour. That may not be you, but it's true for many. The problem for many racists, of course, is that they rushed to vote for Brexit, which was a big cause of so many Europeans going away again.

They’ve obviously all got a bit tired and can’t be arsed any more. But that unfortunately doesn’t mean it might not flare up again if they get bored and it doesn’t start raining.

Just to say, I don't believe everyone on the pro palestine March is antisemitic either - I believe the majority at least believe themselves not to be.

However, by a movement in itself being 'Pro Palestine' rather than for example 'Pro Peace' it is already actually standing for the opposite by continuing divisions. I describe myself as being pro ceasefire along with the return of the hostages and the end of Hamas. A pro-palestine or pro-Israel March offers no nuance - in Israel itself the families of the hostages hold pro-ceasefire rallies, but outside Israel these marches get consumed by and spread a message of hate for Israel.

Israel being a country itself made up of refugees from Israel and the Middle East who were effectively given land because we were going to be murdered everywhere else - no one wanted Jews in their land but no one wants Jews in their ancestral homeland either?

anyway I'm getting off topic again, my point is that while I don't believe most of the pro palestine protesters are anti-Semitic, they are marching alongside people who pretty openly want Jews dead. Many of them are marching without really knowing what they are marching for which is why you see mass chanting of slogans people don't even know are antisemitic.

if someone was like 'I don't support punching Jane in the face but these guys who do support punching Jane in the face also believe in my cause and want to come to my protest (and wave some banners and shout about punching Jane while they're there) so I'll March with them' do you think Jane is going to feel safe at your March or with you in future? I think she'll always be wondering if you want to punch her too.

When people let others holding pictures of Israel being blown up or messages with Nazi slogans like 'we need a final solution for Israel' and wearing Hamas pin badges March alongside them it doesn't matter really if they themselves feel they are antisemitic.

Also I'm Iranian and ask pretty much anyone in the diaspora how much influence Iran is having over the groups at the heart of organising many of these protests and you'll be shocked. For me personally it's another reason to be afraid of them - Iran is somewhere I could not go without being imprisoned and there are people here who are very vigilant for the regime.

Also, being anti Israel's government and its current policies is not being anti Zionist- I agree, criticising Israel's government is not antisemitic (though I find it strange if you're not holding Sinwar up to even stronger criticism, and no one seems to be) - there are huge protests against the government in Israel but these aren't anti Zionist protests.

Being Zionist means you believe the Jews have a right to a homeland. At its basic level that is all. Being anti Zionist means you don't believe that. And it is antisemitic. Saying you hate Zionists when the overwhelming majority of Jews have Zionist beliefs means you hate most Jews.

For some reason the only people who try to tell me I'm wrong when I explain something racist has happened to me because I'm brown are right wing but the left are now happy to tell me as a Jew that when I tell them something is antisemitic I am wrong. Can anyone explain why it's ok to tell someone of any minority that the bigotry they experience isn't real?

Honestly I think there should be another word for criticising the government of Israel without wanting to see the destruction of Israel. Antizionism isn't it.

Anyway all this to say that if the Pro-Palestine protests were peace protests I would attend them. As things are I have no interest in stopping people protesting for Palestine specifically if they want to - at least I can stay away as I know I'm not safe there. But finding the same flags and banners flying at pride marches and counter racism marches which should be a safe space is going to make me anxious and feel unwelcome there. I truly hope you can understand why.

Just putting this here from last night.

How do you know they tossed their passports into the sea? People leaving their homes in fear of their lives can't always pick up all the right paperwork, and/or they get it confiscated and stolen by traffickers and the like.

Yes, non-genuine asylum seekers need to be weeded out and sent back, and that is what happens. Recently it's been taking far too long because the last government preferred to put its time and resources in to the Rwanda nonsense, but the current one has pledged to speed these things up. We also need to look at taking up France's longstanding offer of facilities in France to vet asylum claims and immigration applications. Nevertheless, around 70% of asylum applicants are found to be absolutely genuine.

You know perfectly well the answer to why people leave France. They speak English, they have relatives and other ties here. It's certainly not for the so-called luxury of sharing a room in a Travelodge.

Left wing luvvy cities? Don't be ridiculous. Try going to the poorer areas of Bristol, Oxford and Hounslow and telling them that they're luvvies, see how far you get.

These people need to communicate quickly and effectively with a large number of inherently thick, nasty, lazy and selfish people, most of whom they have no previous connections with. How do you think they will do that other than through social media?

Why is not appropriate? Both statements were true.

Most French people speak English too. I don't believe they risk a dangerous boat crossing just because they speak English. France is a safe country, no reason to risk your life further.

It's because it's just a re-formatting of "I don't hate Jews but...". Hope that clarifies matters for you!

How do you explain to someone that France is a French-speaking country?

So to summarise what happened last night:

Based on a mysterious list (which I personally haven't seen any evidence of) of target cities for protests by the right wing / anti immigration, a large number of counter protestors turned out to counter protest a protest that never actually materialised.

In addition large numbers of police were deployed to separate the counter protesters and the non existent protesters.

So if you ever wonder or complain about the lack of police resourcing then it's because they too busy policing fictitious events.

What you forget is a day in their life is a day at risk of survival , so they don’t have anything to loose for crossing the channel when they’ve already risked so much

asylum seeking requests in 2023
France 163k
Spain 163k
Italy 138k
Uk 67k

What you don’t realise as well is that many of them don’t cross the channel but land by plane https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/immigration-system-statistics-year-ending-december-2023/how-many-people-do-we-grant-protection-to#:~:text=There%20were%2067%2C337%20asylum%20applications%20(relating%20to%2084%2C425%20people)%20in,%2C%20relating%20to%2099%2C939%20people).

Asylum applications decreased by 17% overall between 2022 and 2023. As shown in figure 2, many nationalities saw a decrease in this period, including Afghanistan (down 27% to 7,512), Iran (down 27% to 5,888), and Syria (down 22% to 3,022). The most notable is the 79% decrease in Albanian applications, from 15,070 in 2022 to 3,230 in 2023, following a substantial increase in the number of Albanians arriving by small boat in the summer of 2022.

Some of the top nationalities showed an increase over the period, including India (up 45% to 4,487), Pakistan (up 63% to 3,835) and Turkey (up 87% to 3,636).

Maybe try saying it in French?

@noblegiraffe

"How do you explain to someone that France is a French-speaking country?"

I don't get your point. In the same way that the Netherlands is a Dutch speaking country but a very high proportion speak excellent English.

Saying that someone who speaks English should be able to settle in a French-speaking country because French people can speak English is stupid. In France, things are in French. People speak to each other in French. The TV is in French. Just because someone could speak to you in English if needed, that doesn't mean you wouldn't need to learn French.

Someone who speaks English settling in England wouldn't need to learn another language.

Chicken and egg though isn't it. I have no idea why people can't accept that 700,000 people net immigration per year doesn't put strain on housing/rents/services/undermine wages. It's a head in the sand attitude.

And again, I ask you, would you have written the same thing about islamophobia?

I’ve been feeling incredibly sad the past few days but I am once again so proud to be British ❤️❤️

So many counter protestors came out in support and the photos and videos are beautiful to see.
These were all peaceful and respectful too.

There were 8000 in Walthamstow, 7000 in Bristol and over 2000 in Liverpool.
Thousands were also out in Brighton, Newcastle and areas of London too.

No wonder the far right were too afraid to stick around 😁😁

Quite possibly. The other night the BBC had an article on some sink hole, knife ridden, Northern Council estate where the youths were complaining of no prospects etc. The next article was talking about a shortage of drivers.

Me - Why not take the first lot and train them to be those much needed drivers?

The government and most posters here - Why not let in immigrants to fill those places?

The government (and mainly left wingers) have had no qualms in robbing other countries (usually poor countries) of their skilled staff for far too long with zero qualms about doing it (even Drs and nurses for the NHS). We should be self sufficient in all of these skills if the unis/NHS had enough training places. But the government and left wingers keep saying "immigration welcome" rather than training to meet our own needs rather than sucking the rest of the poor world dry.

Yes they were totally useless. Add in Blair and the current Labour lot who have taken what little brakes there were on immigration off and we can expect housing and services to become even more pressed.

The other night the BBC had an article on some sink hole, knife ridden, Northern Council estate where the youths were complaining of no prospects etc. The next article was talking about a shortage of drivers.

Me - Why not take the first lot and train them to be those much needed drivers?

The government and most posters here - Why not let in immigrants to fill those places?

The government (and mainly left wingers) have had no qualms in robbing other countries (usually poor countries) of their skilled staff for far too long with zero qualms about doing it (even Drs and nurses for the NHS). We should be self sufficient in all of these skills if the unis/NHS had enough training places. But the government and left wingers keep saying "immigration welcome" rather than training to meet our own needs rather than sucking the rest of the poor world dry.

@noblegiraffe

"Saying that someone who speaks English should be able to settle in a French-speaking country because French people can speak English is stupid. In France, things are in French. People speak to each other in French. The TV is in French. Just because someone could speak to you in English if needed, that doesn't mean you wouldn't need to learn French."

I agree that settling in France is a lot easier if you can speak French is easier but it's perfectly doable just in English. Indeed large numbers of Brits (pre Brexit) used to retire to France and Spain without be able (or willing) to learn French or Spanish.

Besides if you are willing then it's perfectly feasible to learn in a year enough French to get by on and very good French in under 2 years.

I fully understand they may have a preference and it's easier to settle in the UK but let's be honest it's a preference and easier and not because they face persecution in France or that lack of French language prevents them staying there.