I’m already fed up of Starmer as PM

[Wasntmeanttobelikethis]

Semi- lighthearted, I know it’s early days, but I’m not convinced of Starmer as an effective leader
He reads from his notes even when giving a short speech; if he really believed in what he is saying, why the need?
He doesn’t seem to have the leadership X factor and doesn’t seem to have a grip on the ongoing riots
Bright new start for UK? Doesn’t feel like it

Agree @Forestofwoodandsteel it’s hardly competent @nextdoorconundrum to remove winter fuel allowance without doing an impact assessment.!

I’m enjoying the - genuinely rather nice - pictures of Starmer getting along with Giorgia Meloni.

These pictures will come back to haunt Starmer, though, when the Labour left start rising against association with the right in Europe.

It’s like Blair’s auto-seduction by George W Bush. But at the speed of light.

This could be a fantastic five years of Labour bewilderment and self-hatred.

I seem to recall Rishi being vilified for talking to Meloni on here

The images of him are awful but she seems to buoy up male politicians

He's flailing around as his policy is going down the plug hole and needs optics and headlines

Indeed. There were many threads and many comments about the fascist right in Italy.

All very different among the Labour stalwarts here now, though, no doubt.

Hypocrisy is in the driving seat now.

I take a more pragmatic view. The fact is that Italy has managed to reduce small boat crossings by 60% - so clearly there's something to be learned from them. Giorgia Meloni's government is horrific, but if they're getting something right and preventing lives from being lost at sea, let's nick the idea. Moral absolutism is stupid.

Good luck with that. Italy will adopt something very far from 'smash the gangs' as Starmer pledged

I doubt the RNLI will willingly do the same and enable drownings and France won't do illegal pullbacks.

EU 'willingly created a cemetery'

Under the current system, Mr Schroeder said the IOM was concerned that "SAR gaps, alleged delays in rescue, and reported lack of response to distress calls may be contributing to tragedies on this route".

It said there was a lack of SAR co-ordination and that "illegal pullbacks" were being conducted by the Libyan coastguard, which the EU has equipped and trained. In addition, last month, the EU signed a $118m (£90m) deal with Tunisia to try to reduce "irregular" migration.

NGOs have also criticised a new law in Italy requiring their rescue vessels to head to often distant ports after an operation, rather than continuing to patrol for more boats in distress. They say this reduces their time in areas where shipwrecks are more common.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66478091

Just read your last line, it's the opposite of saving lives at sea and also implements tough and illegal controls on land.

I couldn’t agree more with the pragmatism. Like Italy’s signed agreement with Albania for off-shore asylum processing.

But I doubt ‘horrific’ is the right word for the Italian government, and if it were why’s a Labour PM being so cosy?

I see that one Labour MP has already said that she’s disturbed by Starmer fact-finding from a ‘neo-fascist’ government.

It's incredible to me that people trust Starmer to learn from Meloni when any journalist can inform people of how Italy have reduced numbers.

It's not the Albania processing, it's as below - policy driven higher deaths and pull backs. I doubt the UK can do the same.

Well, if Italy's policy leads to more deaths.... I doubt the UK will adopt it.
The Albania deal may have been signed but it hasn't been implemented, so maybe wait and see what that looks like before making a judgement?

@Rummly Giorgia Meloni's government is horrific because of its attitude towards the LGBT community, whose rights are being eroded every which way. That's quite enough for them to earn that label. The last Polish government was also horrific because of their draconian abortion laws. I have no problems calling the beast by its name.

Yes that was my point the Albanian processing hasn't started. It is not the reason for the 60% reduction

The methods I linked below are.

Ok. But if “the beast” is horrific why is the righteous Labour PM doing intimate and joyful photo calls with its leader?

Either the beast isn’t horrific, or Labour is full of piss and wind about human rights and moral choices. How many times have Labour supporters on here gone on about Tory dealings with Saudi or Israel?

At least Tories shrug and say “it’s the real world”. Sure, think less of them for that. But don’t then pretend that Labour’s somehow purer. That would be loathsome hypocrisy.

Ok. But if “the beast” is horrific why is the righteous Labour PM doing intimate and joyful photo calls with its leader?

Because that's politics. I'm a pragmatist, not an idealist. I just happen to feel it's only fair to give Labour a similar amount of time to the Tories before we start writing them off. So far they've done several things I'm happy with. In the past 5 years, the Tories did precisely 0 things I was happy with.

I think people are going to be wedded to Labour no matter what, if Meloni meeting Rishi was bad the same meeting Starmer is 'pragmatic'

It's all smoke and mirrors anyway to deflect from the failure of 'smash the gangs'

Deaths and crossings up and they will need to spin to get away from that

You didn’t answer anything. Except perhaps to imply that Labour’s no more moral or good than any other party.

I agree that party cohesion, competence and results would be a change for the better. Too early to tell on that.

But the Labour pre-election line was largely promises about ethics and the absence of sleaze. Those promises seem to have been put out in the No. 10 rubbish bins early on 5 July.

@Rummly so you're one of those that holds the left to higher standards than the right then. I have indeed answered your question: smily photo calls are the price you pay for doing business, even with people who are repugnant. That's just political life.

So far imo Labour have done a lot of good things. I'm happy with how they're doing overall. They're not perfect - I wasn't expecting perfection.

Of course I expect Labour - not the left as a whole necessarily - to have higher standards because they promote themselves relentlessly as having higher standards.

Some of the left is honest in not giving a shit about people, in the advance of the greater Socialist cause.

But not Labour. Yummy, yummy, no corruption, no freebies, no cronyism, no nepotism Labour.

Labour really is a dung heap of hypocrisy.

Fair enough, you're fully entitled to your opinion. In that case, in your universe, I am someone who prefers the lesser dungheap to the greater, and who feels that the current dungheap at least shows some intent to grow some marrows. Whereas the previous dungheap only seemed to want to catch fire and burn the poorest and most vulnerable whilst calling them names.

I think that poor defenceless metaphor has now had enough of a beating.

I don't expect Labour to have higher standards and I don't think they do.

I do notice that one PM meeting Meloni gets a completely different take on here to another which is hypocritical

I’ll just leave this here.

Why? Nobody’s claiming the Tories or their voters are morally great. They’re just normal - you know, the real world and all that.

Labour holds itself out as ethically better. Ha. What a load of shit.

Not sure what that pic is meant to prove but it reminds of the time posters were putting it up to say how bad it was

It seems those same posters won't say a dicky bird about Starmer there today laughing and have a good old time apparently

Quite.

I don’t think either is a good look. Starmer can’t win - one minute he’s slated as a miserable bastard, the next he’s - shock, horror - laughing. At least he’s not gazing lovingly into her eyes.

Oh FFS.